Axis Victories (what's the "magic" trick?)

[Cornwallis]

First of all, we don’t play the Balance Mode, do you?
We don’t Always do the same Modus Operandi with the Allies but in short:

USSR:
        - Slowly give up terrain and turtle in Moscow (retreat units sovjet far east)
        - Built mostly only Inf

UK Eur:
        - Taranto + take Iran
        - Built everything on London turn 1 to prevent sealion.
        - from turn 2 built up from Africa to reinforce USSR and India (middle earth)
        - Slowly built up around canada or london of small fleet to start landings in europe once US is strong enough
        - Fly in fighters to Moscow when necessary

UK Pac:
      - built almost only Inf to defend India + do small raids if possible on Yunann/Birma to harass Japan
        - Turn 1 take 1 money Island with the transport

Anzac:
      - built defendind fleet and transport under umbrella of protection from US fleet
      - take in islands and follow US fleet to garantee strong defensie again IJN.

US:
      - Built 95% fleet in Pacfic and only Subs in Atlantic to start convoying
      - goal is to hop from carolines to filipines and let Anzac do the landings and take territories (their land units are built closer to the money islands  so are expendable
      - Always built 1 war ship in atlantic (sub/ Dest/Tpt) to slowly built up. Once Japan is contained or US income is +80 you can shift and built more in atlantic.

[Cornwallis]

The slow built up in Europe is in case of a Dark Sky, so you don’t lose all your ships in a bombing raid.
Normally after  4 turns or so you are able to move in closer. Goal is to convoy bordaux, Norway (if no german DD) en is Med Sea;

[aequitas-et-veritas]

Hi Cornwallis,

what are the Axis doing?

A pattern in your games could cause the whole Group to act and react to the same pattern in favor of the Allies.

[The Pripet Martian]

@Cornwallis:

So you bomb London and later in the game Moscow and India.
Do you usually built with germany in order to attack and take Moscow or do you built units to withstand an attack from moscow so you can bypass and take middle east NO’s?

As Germany, I bomb every Soviet IC my bombers will reach. Hit Novgorod and Ukraine on the turn I declare war, then Moscow and Volgograd as I get within bombing range. Don’t let up until the turn you capture them. On the Western Front, I keep 2 bombers busy hitting London every turn.

Rather than Italian can openers, I prefer the Germans initially handle the USSR on their own, while I focus on getting the Italians into the Middle East as fast as possible (An I1 amphibious assault into Syria or Trans-Jordan while advancing on Egypt from Tobruk is key). Once Italy has secured the M.E., they can build a minor IC in Iraq or Persia, assault through the Caucasus and meet the Germans in Volgograd.

For the Germans, I build 1-2 strategic bombers per turn, maintaining a minimum of 5 (2 Western Front/3 Eastern Front) at all times. Beyond that, I build mostly armor and mech infantry until I capture Novgorod and/or Ukraine, then build regular infantry and artillery at those ICs. I find the early armor/mech inf build the fastest way to get ground forces from Germany into Russia, which allows me to rapidly gain territory before the Soviets can build up much of a defense force.

[weddingsinger]

If things are going well for Japan in China, their bombers can reach Moscow, too, from Western China.

So, Cornwallis… If UK does Taranto, consider doing Sealion.  Without those fighters, UK can’t stop you.  G3 your buy is for Russia since they’ll be able to attack.  Your transports can start bringing tanks/art back to Europe and Leningrad immediately, bring more inf to London, if you want.

You don’t need to take India.  At least not for a while.  J1 you reduce their income to 10 (taking Hong Kong and Borneo).  J2 you bomb them.  J3+ you should be trying to get 2-4 subs off their coast(s) to convoy them, and take/keep Malaya so UKPac is down to 7 or less income.  Bomb again if needed.  They’re functionally dead while you focus on the Money Islands and finishing off China.

If you do J1 and the Allies still take two money islands, its almost a gift.  You get to sink their transports they can’t afford to replace on J2 and all they got an extra 4 ipc for it.

[Argothair]

From your description of the Allied strategies, Cornwallis, it looks like the weak point in the Allied defense is the land war in Africa. Britain is not attacking Tobruk, not attacking Ethiopia, not buying a turn 1 Egypt factory, not buying any ships or mechs for South Africa turn 1, and attacking Iran (!) on round 1, which will cost a couple of casualties…which means that you now outnumber them in the African theater, at least for the first couple of turns. And it sounds like America is not building enough of an Atlantic fleet to be able to help with Africa anytime soon.

So, if the Taranto raid went relatively well for Italy (it usually should, with no Allied bid), then build the Italian fleet back up and take Egypt.

If you got unlucky, you can still take Egypt, but with air power instead of sea power. Fly the entire Italian air force to Tobruk, march your Ethiopian forces north through Sudan, buy a fighter on Italy’s first turn and a strategic bomber on Italy’s second turn, and beat the stuffing out of Egypt. Keep buying Italian planes, and reinforce them with a Japanese task force of roughly 1 loaded carrier, 1 destroyer, and 1 sub. The combined pressure should force the British fleet out of the Red Sea area and allow your Italian Egyptian factory to crank out enough units to secure the region and start pushing toward Persia and South Africa, even if the Italian fleet is down.

[variance]

In your games what round does Moscow fall?  What round does Calcutta fall?  Try to do time both of those for round 6 and see what happens

[Omega1759]

The key to Axis winning are:

1. Raise German income (Caucasus, Volgorad, some Middle East money) and force Russia to turtle in Moscow. Always prevent foothold on continent while you are keeping Russians pinned down in Moscow. Central to this strategy is to have Italians be can openers.

2. Japan taking India, denying Allies naval superiority (including holding DEI or at least trading them) and keeping China income below 6 IPC.

With above two, UK Europe is too weak along with Soviets to contain the threat. US doesn’t make enough money to overtake Japan or project enough power in Europe to balance things out.

Other factors can help like taking Egypt early and holding it (denies UK national objective and creates 2 Axis objectives).

The key to Allies winning are to maintain a strong core in Asia. Ideally ground and air forces beat Japan on land and rush to help Moscow (or Middle East) or can go back there if needed.

[KGrimB]

Stop the US player from tipping the scales. They are oceans away from you and have to carefully determine a plan of attack. You can react to what they purchase so that you can hold important victory cities. Japan is essential to this because they can more directly demand a response from the Americans.

Although I wouldn’t recommend them early, Aircraft Carriers for Japan are very helpful because you often don’t need to buy the planes for them. Don’t take any 50/50 fights with the US navy and make sure of there is a big fleet battle that you are the one attacking so that your strat bombers can assist

[simon33]

@The:

@Cornwallis:

So you bomb London and later in the game Moscow and India.
Do you usually built with germany in order to attack and take Moscow or do you built units to withstand an attack from moscow so you can bypass and take middle east NO’s?

As Germany, I bomb every Soviet IC my bombers will reach. Hit Novgorod and Ukraine on the turn I declare war, then Moscow and Volgograd as I get within bombing range. Don’t let up until the turn you capture them. On the Western Front, I keep 2 bombers busy hitting London every turn.

Rather than Italian can openers, I prefer the Germans initially handle the USSR on their own, while I focus on getting the Italians into the Middle East as fast as possible (An I1 amphibious assault into Syria or Trans-Jordan while advancing on Egypt from Tobruk is key). Once Italy has secured the M.E., they can build a minor IC in Iraq or Persia, assault through the Caucasus and meet the Germans in Volgograd.

For the Germans, I build 1-2 strategic bombers per turn, maintaining a minimum of 5 (2 Western Front/3 Eastern Front) at all times. Beyond that, I build mostly armor and mech infantry until I capture Novgorod and/or Ukraine, then build regular infantry and artillery at those ICs. I find the early armor/mech inf build the fastest way to get ground forces from Germany into Russia, which allows me to rapidly gain territory before the Soviets can build up much of a defense force.

I wouldn’t bomb the minor Soviet factories. Leningrad for pity’s sake!? You can often get this on the same turn you DOW and usually on the second turn after you DOW. Any troops bought there are toast! Similar with Ukraine.

Can opening is an awesome strat for a single territory - Rostov. That opens up Stalingrad and the Caucasus NOs.

Usually you can’t get on Egypt in the first 8 rounds or so without a bit of luck.

J1 and J2 are valid strategies but for me the risk is too great with a J1. A few lucky rolls and your land units in SE Asia are completely gone. I’ve settled on a J2 DOW but with a J1 take down of FIC (IC+2TT build J1). Don’t build a Manchrian IC IMO. Obviously, then an FIC factory J2. Also, I keep the Kwangsi art out of the Yunnan battle. If China rolls two hits in Hunan, that additional land unit is invaluable to prevent a counter attack there and it just dies in Yunnan.

Japan should be threatening or taking India J5. Don’t get side tracked into fighting China much more than you have to. India is the prize in the region. It is different if you have some reason to play a non standard strategy as Axis, like Sea Lion or a G1 DOW. Then you might not DOW until J3 or perhaps not until J4 (which is costly).

In Europe, keys are getting on Belarus in force G4 which should force USSR back to Moscow, then Bryansk G5. After that it’s a matter of some conjecture and could vary with allied actions whether you should go for the Mid East or Moscow. I normally go for Moscow even if it requires a couple of rounds to build up. Strat bombing works great against Moscow especially if you have the silly (IMO) OOB SBR rules.

If you aren’t able to force back USSR to Moscow on turn 4, i suggest you look at some league games to see if there’s a reason why not?

@KGrimB:

Although I wouldn’t recommend them early, Aircraft Carriers for Japan are very helpful because you often don’t need to buy the planes for them. Don’t take any 50/50 fights with the US navy and make sure of there is a big fleet battle that you are the one attacking so that your strat bombers can assist

100% agree. As the IJN, you don’t want to fight USA at all if you can help it, unless it’s with overwhelming odds.

If the IJN get whittled down, even if it’s doing trades slightly in their favour, the UK and ANZAC start to be able to assert themselves and that isn’t good at all!

[simon33]

One more thing. Don’t buy slow moving troops g2 unless they are for amphibious use. They can’t reach Bryansk g5 which makes then not very useful. Buy A bunch of mech and armour.  It’s much more useful. The mechs can pair with art bought in the forward factories and also bought g1.

[oysteilo]

All of this sounds very easy. I think there is one KEY point I would like to mention. First of all the allied buy you refer to are sound. It indicates that you kind of now what you are doing. I am pretty sure your axis game is pretty good too. You say you don’t play online, I assume that means you only play live games. Live games and online games are two different games. If I play online I would never accept a bid less than 30. When I play live games I am fine with playing out of the box. Axis are harder to play live than online, because it is so much harder to calculate everything in great detail. This is much easier in online games with triple A. A short outline for axis

G1 buy sub, dest, carrier, Take out navy 106 (two subs) 110 and 111 (strafe to save BB)
G2 10 art Germany fast movers in W germany
G3 fast movers in Germany
G4 fast movers in Germany (move your main stack via bealrus, not via western ukraine)
G5 Fast movers in germany or planes or a combo

I1 1 mech + 1 arm (dont take southern france, art and inf need to go towards russia I1),
harder to outline buys for I2 and so on

J1 buy 2 transport + 1 mic, take yuannan and three other chinese
J2 buy 1 carrier, 3 inf for mainland china, dest, sub, declare war, take borneo, kwangtung, Malaya, philiphines and any other allied islands, but protect your transports
J3 buy 1 carrier, 3 inf for main, subs and destroyers, secure DEI, protect transports, land some planes on celeb, sumantra to protect (if you activated them J2)
J4 buy more carriers

[weddingsinger]

@simon33:

I wouldn’t bomb the minor Soviet factories. Leningrad for pity’s sake!? You can often get this on the same turn you DOW and usually on the second turn after you DOW. Any troops bought there are toast! Similar with Ukraine.

That’s great point, Simon.  I hadn’t thought of that…

@simon33:

Japan should be threatening or taking India J5. Don’t get side tracked into fighting China much more than you have to. India is the prize in the region. It is different if you have some reason to play a non standard strategy as Axis, like Sea Lion or a G1 DOW. Then you might not DOW until J3 or perhaps not until J4 (which is costly).

Have you considered using Japan to can open Moscow?  If I can 100% turtle India, I consider that a success since it takes so little effort to keep them that way and go off and focus on fleet/Money Islands and China.

I think China is important because it leads to Russia.  Get to Western China and your bombers and fighters can suddenly help Germany utterly annihilate Russia.  Especially if the U.S. is working in the Atlantic.

If a J1 feels too risky, skip Hunnan and send the extra inf to Hong Kong (though I don’t, usually, since those Jtroops won’t reach Burma road for 2 turns, so I like at least using 1 inf to kill 2 Chinese troops and risk losing a fighter).  The 2 transports you you buy J1 can deliver the troops for J3 on Burma road (or take Malaya), and the factory built on J1 will have troops in the battle on J3 (Hunnan) or J4(Yunnan or farther).  A J1 costs UKPac a battleship and 7 ipcs, so their income is only 10 and your bombing on J2 means their J1 buy is the only time all game they should get to do more than buy one or two infantry.

[The Pripet Martian]

@simon33:

@The:

As Germany, I bomb every Soviet IC my bombers will reach. Hit Novgorod and Ukraine on the turn I declare war, then Moscow and Volgograd as I get within bombing range. Don’t let up until the turn you capture them. On the Western Front, I keep 2 bombers busy hitting London every turn.

I wouldn’t bomb the minor Soviet factories. Leningrad for pity’s sake!? You can often get this on the same turn you DOW and usually on the second turn after you DOW. Any troops bought there are toast! Similar with Ukraine.

My opponents consistently build an infantry stack in Novgorod on R1 and leave 1 INF in the Baltic States to delay me, so I’ve yet to take Leningrad in less than two turns after DoW; hence the strategic bombing. Unless the Soviets leave the Baltic States wide open and Novgorod lightly defended or Germany builds a transport fleet prior to DoW, I don’t see how you take Leningrad on the turn you declare war. Bombing Ukraine serves to discourage the Soviets from defending that IC…and because the max damage is 6 IPCs, it’s relatively painless for me to repair it once captured.

[weddingsinger]

@The:

My opponents consistently build an infantry stack in Novgorod on R1 and leave 1 INF in the Baltic States to delay me, so I’ve yet to take Leningrad in less than two turns after DoW; hence the strategic bombing. Unless the Soviets leave the Baltic States wide open and Novgorod lightly defended or Germany builds a transport fleet prior to DoW, I don’t see how you take Leningrad on the turn you declare war. Bombing Ukraine serves to discourage the Soviets from defending that IC…and because the max damage is 6 IPCs, it’s relatively painless for me to repair it once captured.

For the northern route, a lot of folks use transports, plus you’ve got your troops from Finland.  On G1 for example, I’ll often shuttle a tank and a tactical up to Norway in preparation.

[Zhukov44]

Cornwallis, we don’t have enough info to figure out what you’re doing wrong.  For max feedback, go ahead and tell us what you typically buy and attack (with Axis) for the first few rounds.

[simon33]

@weddingsinger:

@simon33:

Japan should be threatening or taking India J5. Don’t get side tracked into fighting China much more than you have to. India is the prize in the region. It is different if you have some reason to play a non standard strategy as Axis, like Sea Lion or a G1 DOW. Then you might not DOW until J3 or perhaps not until J4 (which is costly).

Have you considered using Japan to can open Moscow?  If I can 100% turtle India, I consider that a success since it takes so little effort to keep them that way and go off and focus on fleet/Money Islands and China.

I think China is important because it leads to Russia.  Get to Western China and your bombers and fighters can suddenly help Germany utterly annihilate Russia.  Especially if the U.S. is working in the Atlantic.

If a J1 feels too risky, skip Hunnan and send the extra inf to Hong Kong (though I don’t, usually, since those Jtroops won’t reach Burma road for 2 turns, so I like at least using 1 inf to kill 2 Chinese troops and risk losing a fighter).  The 2 transports you you buy J1 can deliver the troops for J3 on Burma road (or take Malaya), and the factory built on J1 will have troops in the battle on J3 (Hunnan) or J4(Yunnan or farther).  A J1 costs UKPac a battleship and 7 ipcs, so their income is only 10 and your bombing on J2 means their J1 buy is the only time all game they should get to do more than buy one or two infantry.

Yeah but with most league games gone to balanced mod, the Japanese DOW on USSR is costly. Also, I really want that India factory before it gets strong enough to help Moscow too much. It takes a long time for Japan to make a big dent in the USSR income.

Regarding the J1 DOW, yeah I do see what you’re saying but you’re also thinning out the Japanese forces and I don’t think the UK BB is such a big deal. I suppose I have never tried holding back some troops from the Hunan battle - that could make sense. Although it may be better to just hope for less than two defensive hits or take a plane if that happens.

@The:

My opponents consistently build an infantry stack in Novgorod on R1 and leave 1 INF in the Baltic States to delay me, so I’ve yet to take Leningrad in less than two turns after DoW; hence the strategic bombing. Unless the Soviets leave the Baltic States wide open and Novgorod lightly defended or Germany builds a transport fleet prior to DoW, I don’t see how you take Leningrad on the turn you declare war. Bombing Ukraine serves to discourage the Soviets from defending that IC…and because the max damage is 6 IPCs, it’s relatively painless for me to repair it once captured.

If you are talking about an I2/G3 DOW on USSR, which is pretty standard, couldn’t you can open Baltic States with the Italians? In any event, why would it take more than two turns to get to Novgorod? Poland -> Baltic States -> Novgorod!

[weddingsinger]

@simon33:

Yeah but with most league games gone to balanced mod, the Japanese DOW on USSR is costly. Also, I really want that India factory before it gets strong enough to help Moscow too much. It takes a long time for Japan to make a big dent in the USSR income.

Regarding the J1 DOW, yeah I do see what you’re saying but you’re also thinning out the Japanese forces and I don’t think the UK BB is such a big deal. I suppose I have never tried holding back some troops from the Hunan battle - that could make sense. Although it may be better to just hope for less than two defensive hits or take a plane if that happens.

I’m not familiar with the balanced mod.  I was referring to Japan selling out the Pac side of the board on or after J5 to use its air power to hit Moscow from one of the Western China provinces, which also dodges the Mongolian rule.  Does the balanced mod do something else if Japan attacks?

How much does India produce against you?  For me its not much after their round 1 buy. Usually they’ve got 5-15 ipc to spend over the next 2-3 rounds.  J2 I bomb it and move 2 subs off Malaya to convoy it, then J3 you can convoy Calcutta itself, if you take Malaya.  UKPac income goes from 17 to 10 to 7 on UK3.  Maybe they sacrifice a transport for an extra 4ipc from Java.

[simon33]

Ok, well with the balanced mod USSR gets up to another 6IPC/turn if Japan does a DOW on it. Not a rule I like, but there you have it.

My last couple of Axis games have been Sea Lion games so might not be the best comparison. Found a recent normal game. UK_Pac didn’t activate Sumatra but hit a bomber J2, mobilised 5inf UK2, 2inf UK3, nothing UK4 (could have bought 1inf), fell J5. May have lasted longer if they’d have activated Sumatra.

Another change in balanced mod is that UK_Pac gets an Indian Ocean NO, worth 3IPC/turn. Anyway, I don’t feel that BM changes the fundamentals of the game but it does tend to punish you for going off script.

Calcutta still gets at least 2IPC/turn which is not convoyable from West India and if you are trading Burma, that becomes 3IPC/turn providing their inf misses.

There is another option if USSR are stacking Leningrad. Just walk past it. Unless there’s artillery, they won’t have much attack strength. Then Moscow should be a cake walk.

[simon33]

@oysteilo:

All of this sounds very easy. I think there is one KEY point I would like to mention. First of all the allied buy you refer to are sound. It indicates that you kind of now what you are doing. I am pretty sure your axis game is pretty good too. You say you don’t play online, I assume that means you only play live games. Live games and online games are two different games. If I play online I would never accept a bid less than 30. When I play live games I am fine with playing out of the box. Axis are harder to play live than online, because it is so much harder to calculate everything in great detail. This is much easier in online games with triple A. A short outline for axis

G1 buy sub, dest, carrier, Take out navy 106 (two subs) 110 and 111 (strafe to save BB)
G2 10 art Germany fast movers in W germany
G3 fast movers in Germany
G4 fast movers in Germany (move your main stack via bealrus, not via western ukraine)
G5 Fast movers in germany or planes or a combo

I1 1 mech + 1 arm (dont take southern france, art and inf need to go towards russia I1),
harder to outline buys for I2 and so on

J1 buy 2 transport + 1 mic, take yuannan and three other chinese
J2 buy 1 carrier, 3 inf for mainland china, dest, sub, declare war, take borneo, kwangtung, Malaya, philiphines and any other allied islands, but protect your transports
J3 buy 1 carrier, 3 inf for main, subs and destroyers, secure DEI, protect transports, land some planes on celeb, sumantra to protect (if you activated them J2)
J4 buy more carriers

This strategy targets a G7 attack on Moscow when a G6 attack is obviously better. More importantly, it doesn’t appear to anticipate reaching Bryansk until G6. Getting there G5 is what you really want!