• Hence Lend-Lease is a game changer as I pointed out several times.

  • '21 '18 '16

    This is like asking how many licks to the center of a Tootsie Pop!
    The world may never know…
    But in this case, our current dimensional plane in which we exist, we will never know.


  • It takes 3 licks to get to the center of a tootsie pop, I remember that commercial


  • @Midnight_Reaper:

    Well, I think that one of the major consequences of the US staying out of the war would have been all of Germany being run by Soviets, as opposed to just their chunk in the east.

    -Midnight_Reaper

    Had operation Overlord failed all of Western Europe would have been in the Soviet sphere. Had Churchill protested Stalin would simply ask him “where is your army”.

    Likely that Franco would have been overthrown in Spain by the Red Army.


  • @8thGuards:

    @Midnight_Reaper:

    Well, I think that one of the major consequences of the US staying out of the war would have been all of Germany being run by Soviets, as opposed to just their chunk in the east.

    -Midnight_Reaper

    Had operation Overlord failed all of Western Europe would have been in the Soviet sphere. Had Churchill protested Stalin would simply ask him “where is your army”.

    Likely that Franco would have been overthrown in Spain by the Red Army.

    This is the most insane argument I have heard, let’s shoot for the moon on this and assume the allies just got destroyed during Overload so all the paratroopers are dead, and all landing parties were pushed back on the beach and surrendered. Explain to me how the Allies who are fighting against the Italians are going to then lose that sphere to USSR and then proceed to explain how USSR is going to capture Berlin and then move west, and after you get that done. Explain how the western allies are not going to do anything now.


  • Morelikely that the Reich and Soviet Union would have had a stall at Berlin.
    Nuremberg would have been Capitol of the Reich.
    So a kinda win win situation.

    The Allies didn’t pull off Overlord all by them self, it was an inside job.
    We all know that.


  • @aequitas:

    The Allies didn’t pull off Overlord all by them self, it was an inside job.
    We all know that.

    Either you’ve lost it, or you are insisting that the German Army “let” the Americans and the British into France.

    Sources please (yes, multiple sources from different places/people), or I’m just going to assume that you’re straight up trolling.

    -Midnight_Reaper


  • @Midnight_Reaper:

    @aequitas:

    The Allies didn’t pull off Overlord all by them self, it was an inside job.
    We all know that.

    Either you’ve lost it, or you are insisting that the German Army “let” the Americans and the British into France.

    Sources please (yes, multiple sources from different places/people), or I’m just going to assume that you’re straight up trolling.

    -Midnight_Reaper

    I will not provide a single extra source except the sources that are allready given.
    Just use your common sense for a minute and tell me/us that D-day happend exactly as History tells us it happend.
    If you don’t have a shadow of a doubt.
    Then we agree to disagree.

    Ask your self these Q: why said Eisenhower that casualties were more then the expected?

    • Check out Hans Speidel biography
    • Check out Dolchstosslegende
      There are many more but you need to dig for yourself and have the courage to ask the right questions.

    Do you Honestly think each single German soldier was a pro Nazi or Nazi at all?
    Do you really think that the Allies could have done the job on d-day by them selfs?

  • '17 '16 '15 '14 '12

    D-Day was June 1944. So was Bagration. By that time the Russians had already beat them at Moscow, Stalingrad, Kursk, and a hundred other places.

    The USSR defeated Nazi Germany.  They would have won with or without the UK or USA.


  • @aequitas:

    The Allies didn’t pull off Overlord all by them self, it was an inside job.

    “The Allies didn’t pull off Overlord all by them self, it was an inside job” is a little vague, and I’m having trouble understanding precisely what this is meant to imply.  “Inside job” presumably refers to the German side, and probably more specifically to senior political and/or military leadership of Nazi Germany, which is what I’m going to assume; if you mean somthing else, could you clarify what you’re refering to?

    If the theory being proposed here is that the success or failure of the D-Day invasion depended entirely, or even to a significant degree, on conspiratorial machinations by anti-Nazi elements within Germany itself, I have trouble buying that argument.  Were there such anti-Nazi elements within Germany itself?  Of course there were, and that’s no secret; to pick just the most famous example, the almost-successful plot of July 20, 1944, to assassinate Hitler and stage a coup d’etat has been the subject of many books and movies (including a 2008 one starring Tom Cruise, for goodness sake).  And it’s likewise no secret that the German units manning the Atlantic Wall on D-Day included foreign conscripts of dubious quality or loyalty; as I recall, Cornelius Ryan mentions this in his book The Longest Day, which came out in the late 1950s.  There’s also nothing improbable about the notion that, on D-Day itself, there some German officers and some German soldiers who privately hoped that the Allied landings would be successful and who, perhaps, even tried to gum up the German response in minor ways that weren’t too obvious (in order to avoid detection and, most likely, summary trial and execution).  It’s quite a stretch, however, to extrapolate these things into the theory (if that’s what’s being implied) that they were the decisive factors in the ultimate success of Overlord – or even further, the theory that Overlord was primarily a German anti-Nazi operation rather than an Allied military operation.  In my opinion, the most significant contributions made by the Germans to the success of D-Day were the contributions they made through various strategic and tactical errors, compounded by such factors as (for example) the dysfunctional command structure which prevented German’s panzer reserves from being released without the express authorization of Hitler.

    The “Dolchstosslegende” mentioned in your later post, by the way, is very puzzling because it has nothing to do with D-Day or even with WWII.  It’s a reference to the post-WWI German popular theory (Hitler was quite fond of it) that Germany wasn’t really defeated militarily in WWI, but rather was “stabbed in the back” by traitorous senior German politicians.  And note that “Dolchstosslegende” translates as “back-stab legend”, which is in line with the conventional view that this is a mythological interpretation of why Germany lost WWI.

  • '21 '20 '18 '17

    I suppose that the real battle in the trenches is between those of us who have taken the time to validate an earnest and self-explanatory flow of narrative history based on actual events and facts

    And those who think that whatever they make up based on reading a few, general articles about something counts as history.


  • Guys stop feeding the troll, anyone who even remotely takes themselves serious about WWII wouldn’t argue those dumb points about Overlord.


  • Everybody should cool down.
    Maybe ya’ll should reread the Headline of this Topic? :?

    Looks like some of you are really quick with judging someone.

    It’s a what if topic.

    But if some of you guys are interested in "Was d-day an inside job " , i would go ahead and do some research on Equivalent english reading sources.

    I personally have doubts and struggle with the thought about d-day.
    But that is simply me.

    CWO Marc Thank you for being fair and contribute your thoughts to the points i raised in this topic and behaving like a gentlemen.
    I would never expect less from you and your knowledge on WWII related topics is allways welcome.

    Taamvan, you are right.
    There is still a those who stand on top of the trench and telling those in the trench:
    You won’t find war down there, it is here so come up :wink: :-P

  • '20 '19 '18

    I know this won’t end debate on the original question - Could the UK and USSR have defeated Germany without the US? - but I’m curious: Has anyone tried playing G40 with the US as a strict neutral, thus taking America out of the war? With modified rules (Allies don’t surrender IPCs & can still purchase units/collect income when their capitals are captured, for example), it might be an interesting exercise.

  • '21 '20 '18 '17

    In the US and UK historiography The “Dolch/” story is renown as a piece of nationalist apologism and abject denial of the actual conduct of Imperial Germany.  To apply it further to the period after the Freikorps is going to sound unusual to anyone who understands the myth, because it essential says that Germany was defeated by seditious forces within, rather than the truth, which is that they were defeated by their own incompetence and folly.

  • '21 '20 '18 '17

    Could the UK and USSR have defeated Germany without the US?

    No.  No without the bombers, no without the convoy escorts, no without the moral support, and especially no without the material support we term “Lend Lease”

    Has anyone tried playing G40 with the US as a strict neutral, thus taking America out of the war?

    This is every game.    If you mean America never has a forced entry into the war, then why would it even be depicted, just leave it blank.  In that case, the Axis win every game.  The dynamics of the game are too structured to make big picture changes like that unless you completely re-imagine the two sides, and if you do that, the dynamics of the movement and the open are ruined because former enemies are next to each other.  The USA in the Global game is the lynchpin of the Allied war effort and strategy.

    You can switch France to Axis and Italy to Allies, that would work pretty well I think.

  • '20 '19 '18

    @taamvan:

    Could the UK and USSR have defeated Germany without the US?

    This is every game.    If you mean America never has a forced entry into the war, then why would it even be depicted, just leave it blank.

    What I’m suggesting is an extension of the Monroe Doctrine: The US remains a strict neutral unless any Axis power attacks a territory (or adjacent sea zone) in the Americas or any American-controlled territory in the Pacific. The US would continue to purchase units, do noncombat movement and collect income, but that’s it. Combined with the previously-mentioned rule mod, that would allow the UK government to flee to Canada when Sea Lion comes and in effect enjoy American protection whilst continuing the fight against the Axis.

    Victory conditions might need adjusting, but it could be fun/interesting…or just the quickest game of G40 you’ll ever play.  :-D

  • '21 '20 '18 '17

    Why would they attack it?  I don’t think I understand your proposal from the point of view that you have 2 weak and 3 pathetic teams up against 2 strong enemies and 1 weak one so there would no balance in that game or any point in depicting the USA because the only time to attack it would be after you defeat the weak enemies one by one (there is no strong ally at all in your proposal…)


  • Actually in G40, since the scale is so far off that you can argue that G40 technically has nothing to do with WWII that if you removed the US from game play, it would be very easy for Italy and Germany to gain naval supremacy over the Allies.

  • '20 '19 '18

    @taamvan:

    Why would they attack it?   I don’t think I understand your proposal from the point of view that you have 2 weak and 3 pathetic teams up against 2 strong enemies and 1 weak one so there would no balance in that game or any point in depicting the USA because the only time to attack it would be after you defeat the weak enemies one by one (there is no strong ally at all in your proposal…)

    Off the top of my head, the only reason to provoke the US would be to finish off the British, who would (in event of Sea Lion) be operating out of Canada. Like I said, victory conditions would need to be adjusted to give the Allies a fighting chance, but it could be interesting.

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