What to do with the German Bomber?

[trihero]

It takes SIX TURNS on average to kill only $1.5 extra enemy forces over the value of your BOM using SBR.

Well… by your own reasoning you said earlier that you kill 2 inf per 3 rounds, so per 6 rounds it’s 4 inf. 4 inf is $12 IPCs, which isn’t recovering the cost of the bomber. At least in 6 turns I’ll get more than the returns on the bomber for SBR. I realize that the bomber can potentially participate in more rounds of combat per turn so it might rack up those 6 combats faster than the 6 turns, but that shouldn’t be happening unless there’s luck involved - either the enemy took trading zones with more units than expected or made mistakes with overextending.

I used to think like you did, like everyone thinks actually, but I think it is a little bit more complex because it is rare to get into large combats where the bomber hits lots of military targets. It’s useful in trading no doubt but your fighters could do about the same.

Just a little bit more complex, because I would still usually keep the bomber for trading and strafing runs for the reasons you stated.

[Guest]

Per TURN OF COMBAT not per game turn.

Somewhere in that 6 game turns that is required to get the average $1.5 gain from SBR’s, you would fight a couple of combats that run 2+ rounds of combat.

So you get the 4 dead INF (on average) faster than 6 game turns since you only need six COMBAT rounds to obtain that average result.

And again, 4 dead INF over 6 combat turns, if played correctly, is a NET $12 increase because you STILL have your BOM, while the $1.5 average increase over 6 tuns of SBR includes the loss of the BOM.

In a single game, sure you can get hot dice and SBR the snot out of your opponent.  But after 50 or 100 or more games, the law of averages kicks in, and killing INF adds up easier, safer, and FAR FASTER than SBR damage…  all without risk to a $15 asset.

[trihero]

Per TURN OF COMBAT not per game turn.

Somewhere in that 6 game turns that is required to get the average $1.5 gain from SBR’s, you would fight a couple of combats that run 2+ rounds of combat.

Don’t make Jen’s mistake of not reading something I already posted.

I quote myself here, because I already knew you would try to make the argument:

I realize that the bomber can potentially participate in more rounds of combat per turn so it might rack up those 6 combats faster than the 6 turns, but that shouldn’t be happening unless there’s luck involved - either the enemy took trading zones with more units than expected or made mistakes with overextending.

And again, 4 dead INF over 6 combat turns, if played correctly, is a NET $12 increase because you STILL have your BOM, while the $1.5 average increase over 6 tuns of SBR includes the loss of the BOM.

But you do not have to pay for the loss of your bomber. You do not have to spend 15 IPCs to replace it, because you never spent the cash to build it in the first place. The enemy is looking at less IPCs if you SBR rather than if you just use the bomber in one turn combats, which is the most likely situation. But this is of course only if you can spare your bomber, which may not happen depending on the first couple rounds of necessary attacks.

If the bomber participates in more than one turn combats, it is only because either the enemy got lucky and took the territory with more forces, in which case you NEED the extra returns just to catch back up, or theh enemy made a mistake in overtaking a territory.

[Guest]

But the loss of the BOM is still loss of a combat unit… one with tremendous range AND punch.

So long as the BOM lives, you add 1 kill to every attack you make.
So long as the BOM lives, your opponent cannot leave unguarded TRN’s within range

Let’s say for sake of argument that you only ever use the BOM for engagements of 1 round duration.
Now let’s take an average length game… 12 turns.

Using the BOM for SBR, you will do $17.5 IPC’s of damage to your opponent before the BOM dies.
That is it.  Odds are by that time the BOM is dead, and you do not have it to use at all for the last 5 turns of the game which means harder trading by Germany for turns 7 through 12 (which means more German land units die)

Using it for ground combat, it will kill, on average, 8 enemy units.  Let’s assume they are all the lowest value possible:  INF.
That is $24 in dead units over a 12 turn game.

And you STILL have the BOM alive to add punch to those major attacks, like sacking Moscow, where it adds 2 kills per 3 rounds of combat.

Not sure why you are having trouble seeing that difference…

[trihero]

Not sure why you are having trouble seeing that difference…

If you do not need the bomb to trade territories anymore, why not SBR? You’re not gaining anything special by using a bomber if you also have enough fighters available to trade. I’m certain the Germans require their bomb for intensive trading for the first few rounds, but after that it doesn’t seem necessary. So you rack up the first few rounds of risk-less work, then you go off and deal your $17.5 damage. That can be super helpful because after a point all you’re doing is trading 2 territories with Russia which only requires figs, and the bomber isn’t helping very much, so you might as well help Japan by doing more damage through SBR.

And you STILL have the BOM alive to add punch to those major attacks, like sacking Moscow, where it adds 2 kills per 3 rounds of combat.

What I have trouble seeing is how battles last that long. It was difficult for me to see this at first, but very few battles last 3 rounds or more.

So long as the BOM lives, your opponent cannot leave unguarded TRN’s within range

This is about irrelevant past a certain point. If you can tell that having a single bomb no longer threatens the Allies transport chain, then it’s time to send it to SBR. I see no reason to conserve a bomber if it no longer significantly threatens the transport chain and also its services are no longer required except for some minimal change in % for trading.

I’m having trouble seeing why you want to save your bomber past the point when it’s just not helping much anymore, when your figs are capable of handling the trading and there is no more reasonable possibility of threatening navy. You might as well help Japan out by bombing 17.5 IPCs out of Russia, because you sure aren’t going to get that many IPCs out of your bomb when it comes to the final attack, and remember this is after the bomber has served its useful life in trading territories, when you have lots of figs available to do that.

[Jennifer]

Bean, Switch is afraid of the AA Gun.

[trihero]

The one AA gun….TO RULE THEM ALL.

I do very much think you should keep the handy bomber at your side for much of the early to mid game, but I also think that there is some point at which you should let it go free and experience the world for itself. Bombers get skittish when you coop them up too long. Just like the cow on the left here.

[Jennifer]

I stopped being afraid of AA Guns.  Too many players were putting an AA Gun in my way and winning because I wouldn’t attack it.

[trihero]

I’m afraid of AA guns when they’re in places where I’m only going to spend one round of combat. It’s not a very good trade economically. A $10 IPC fighter means if you go into a territory with an AA that you’re losing 1.66  IPCs on average and likely you are doing 1.5 IPCs (killing infantry). That’s no good. If I see something like 1 inf 1 aa in a territory I will either go 2 inf 1 art or simply try to overpower it with a big force then retreat the next turn with a new shiny AA gun.

But you’re right, you shouldn’t be afraid of the AA gun if it is a battle in which your fighters will be used for a few rounds.

[Jennifer]

Nah, cause taking them gives me a free AA Gun to use against them.  If they are too afraid of the gun, I net the territory for multiple rounds and can pull the gun back if I want too or press forward and land my planes.  Or maybe he attacks with armor so I can kill a few of them off.

Anyway, I’ll attack anything I want.  I’ve sent 5 fighters and 2 infantry against an infantry and AA Gun with out regard to the potential loss.

[trihero]

Anyway, I’ll attack anything I want.  I’ve sent 5 fighters and 2 infantry against an infantry and AA Gun with out regard to the potential loss.

Well that’s your prerogative to make decisions as the CO.

[trihero]

But isn’t there some limit…I mean theoretically if you had 100 fighters with nothing else to do, would you send 100 fighters + 2 inf to attack 1 inf 1 aa? It seems silly to me to lose 16 fighters to take the aa gun, unless the enemy has more fighters and no land units to take it back.

[newpaintbrush]

Stop stop stop.

There are situations in which you want to save your bomber (of any power) and not risk them.  Switch did a good job in summing up most of the cases - anyways he covered most of the stuff I would have mentioned offhand.

There are situations in which you want to strategic bomb.  NOT just when US has “Superfortresses” either.  Usually this is when Russia was overaggressive first turn, and you’re going Turbo Tank Dash to Moscow, but NOT always.  There are other situations too.

[trihero]

The situations in which you want to save your bomber are already accepted and standard.

What people do not think about is the situation to SBR.

p.s. where can I baiz some turbotankz!? lawlz.

[newpaintbrush]

@Bean:

The situations in which you want to save your bomber are already accepted and standard.

What people do not think about is the situation to SBR.

p.s. where can I baiz some turbotankz!? lawlz.

Ya well, u kno that ppl get their “ideaz”, and there “klever planz”, and they dun wanna listen to anyone else.  So it no use arguin!

u can baiz teh turbotankz if u join teh “jenforces” lawlz.  field promotion to lieutenant kernel!

[Guest]

OK, to balance my prior posts…

A good time to SBR as Germany…
When you have your forces ready to attack Moscow the following turn, have no use for the BOM in combat this turn, the BOM is not critical to the Moscow attack, but reducing the Russian build before the attack could significantly reduce enemy resistance.

[Jennifer]

A good time to SBR as Germany is when you own Caucasus and don’t yet have enough armor to take Moscow.  If you and Japan are both SBRing and one or both of you lose your bombers, you’re not going to lose the game.

Times when NOT to SBR as Germany is if you cannot even hold all your original territories! (Possible exception of Norway.)

[trihero]

u can baiz teh turbotankz if u join teh “jenforces” lawlz.  field promotion to lieutenant kernel!

W00t field promo to kurnal! The next phase in teh strategeries is code name “jenigma decoded.”

That’s a little bit conservative Switch, but at least you do make some provision to SBR at some point.

[U-505]

I see no reason to use the bomber for SBR’s except when you are losing badly and you need to gamble. It is much more useful as a long range 4 based out of Southern Europe so it can threaten just about anything worth killing.

[trihero]

I see no reason to use the bomber for SBR’s except when you are losing badly and you need to gamble.

That’s exactly what I’m doing in my game against Gamer.  :evil:

It is much more useful as a long range 4 based out of Southern Europe so it can threaten just about anything worth killing.

After a certain point what’s it really doing? After a certain point the Allied transport system is too strong to be threatend by 1 bomber, after a certain point solely your fighters will suffice in trading territories. Then what’s the use of doing nothing with your bomber?