Allied Strategy- London Calling

[GeneralHandGrenade]

Now you’re thinking PS. I had thought too that the way to counter it would be with subs on 102. The problem that I’ve encountered so far is that Germany loses too many planes trying to take out the UK fleet which again is the goal of London Calling. The subs provide the fodder so that the planes aren’t lost but with them gone then for sure the UK will scramble and kill as many planes as possible. Leaving the 110 fleet means you move them to 109 to hook up with the destroyer and possibly a 4 plane scramble (depending on what has happened). Again, dead German planes trying to take it out and Sealion impossible. If Germany started with just a bit more navy in the game then it would be possible but they just don’t have enough boats in the water to do Sealion and protect their fleet by G3 any way you slice it.

[simon33]

@Ichabod:

I think the only reason to stage a US fleet in sz 102 (fighters) and bombers in Washington DC (to sink the German Navy) is to try to let the UK get away with not doing a standard 6 /1 UK1 purchase. Because, otherwise what’s the point of doing this SZ 102 thing?

The more I think about, the less reason I think there is for avoiding this purchase.

Later in the game, these infantry are very useful and normally need to be added to to prevent London falling shortly after Moscow, or can also be used to hit Normandy.

I guess one thing these strategies are useful for is removing fear from scrambling G1.

[Leatherneckinlv]

As a German player, to see this London calling strategy would make me giddy,this strategy is incredibly flawed….worthless in fact…people miss the point of Sea Lion which is to secure a flank, and prevent landing spots for US Bombers

Germany and Italy must play as one with same objectives in mind

[PainState]

@Leatherneckinlv:

As a German player, to see this London calling strategy would make me giddy,this strategy is incredibly flawed….worthless in fact…people miss the point of Sea Lion which is to secure a flank, and prevent landing spots for US Bombers

Germany and Italy must play as one with same objectives in mind

Well, I don’t think people miss the point that knocking out the UK and securing the island is key to Axis success.

I just want more insight on how the plan is flawed to the point of worthless. That is the real “meat” of your post. Back it up, lets get some insight on why it is flawed and pointless.

[GeneralHandGrenade]

@Leatherneckinlv:

As a German player, to see this London calling strategy would make me giddy,this strategy is incredibly flawed….worthless in fact…people miss the point of Sea Lion which is to secure a flank, and prevent landing spots for US Bombers

Germany and Italy must play as one with same objectives in mind

I have to disagree with you. Earlier in this thread you said that your “secret Italian strategy” would render London Calling useless. If you’re not willing to debate how your strategy would beat it then why would you even bother saying anything? I could tell you that my “secret ANZAC strategy” would wipe out every Italian on the board by then end of the fourth turn. Sounds kind of silly doesn’t it? Doesn’t seem possible does it? With all due respect, forgive me if I don’t believe you at all when you say that the Italians will stop this from being a viable strategy against a player that believes that Sealion is the way to go. You can do better than telling someone that their strategy is useless without giving any details whatsoever on how you plan to overcome it. Let’s see what you got.

[PainState]

@Leatherneckinlv:

I have a plan for the Italians that is pretty out of the box to help secure the European flank.

In every game that fleet in 111 has been irrelevant and by the time it could become relevant it’s too late because of my secret Italian strategy.

Ok man, stop teasing me……I want to see this strategy.

:-D :-o

[Ichabod]

@PainState:

@Leatherneckinlv:

I have a plan for the Italians that is pretty out of the box to help secure the European flank.

In every game that fleet in 111 has been irrelevant and by the time it could become relevant it’s too late because of my secret Italian strategy.

Ok man, stop teasing me……I want to see this strategy.

:-D :-o

Must be hanging out with Dauvio Vann. I hope the community is worthy of learning that secret.

[GeneralHandGrenade]

I have my hover tanks from Fortress America all painted up in ANZAC grey and I’m ready to pay Rome a visit.

[Leatherneckinlv]

Taking out UK by Sea Lion has 2 points, a strategic and tactical attack. You do not by any means take out UK until turn 4. Scotland is a must. Attacking the AB and NB was senseless by the German player in the video. By turn 4 if all has gone well Germany will have a fleet and 5 Bombers…6 maybe 7 transports. turn 3 buy by Germany is 70% for Russia…
Italy will take out Morocco and Gibraltar…all of Italy’s concern is to make Sea Zone 91 a very heavy price to pay to enter. US can not and will not survive a double hit by Italy and then Germany in SZ 91
I will say this you are looking at roughly 12 Italian Subs…AB on Morocco by Italy on turn 2…another AB on Gibraltar on turn 3…Italian and German planes for scramble plus the German fleet in 110 which will have a CV, BB, CA, 2 / 3 DD and 2 to 6 SS ( the Subs truly vary as it can be as low as 2 to possible 6) 5 Bombers to strike any US approach towards Europe

Turn 5 on Italy can secure North Africa for good.

At this point Germany doesn’t have to take out Moscow. Leningrad and Stalingrad will get you 8 cities, however by this time Japan has already won the war in the Pacific.

Russia will never be a threat to Germany.

Key factors are German buys

Turn 1 a strat bomber, DD, SS and arty (30 ipc)
Turn 2 a CV, 4 APA, 1 DD, a strat bomber Arty as needed ( 68 to 73 ipc)
Turn 3 a strat bomber and rest Infantry (50 plus ipc) here you may have to purchase 1 or 2 APA if necessary
Turn 4 by Infantry Arty Mix for Russia ( 50 plus ipc)
Turn 5 A couple of ships and all tanks (77 plus closer to 82 ipc)

Italy:
Turn 1 APA (10 ipc)
Turn 2 AB and all SS (from 18 to 28 ipc)
Turn 3 AB and  all SS (33 plus IPC
turn 4 all SS (35 plus ipc)

Turn 2 Germany hopefully has 3 subs in SZ 109, a sub in SZ 106 (iffy) and an Italian fleet of some sort…least being a sub in SZ 98 to convoy the UK

The more UK buys to prevent Sea Lion, the more luxury buys Italy can make

Some variances may apply in purchases however not by much

So Yeah…go ahead and make my day

APA=Naval Transport
SS=Submarine
DD=Destroyer
CA=Cruiser
BB=Battleship
CV=Aircraft Carrier

[General 6 Stars]

Lovin it !

[simon33]

I for one haven’t had any success with a two stage sea lion strategy. UK just buys too much infantry and needing to avoid a Japanese DOW until J4 weakens the Axis.

Have you had any success with such a strategy?

[Argothair]

Leatherneck, your strategy sounds so silly to me that I suspect you of trolling the forum. If Italy builds nothing but one transport before switching to 100% submarines and airbases, then there’s no way they’re going to get up to anywhere near 30+ IPCs of income AT ALL, let alone by turn 3. You just don’t have enough ground units. You start the game with only 22 ground units, vs. 23 Allied ground units in the territories you need to conquer (Southern France, Yugoslavia, Greece, Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Alexandria, Egypt). Even if you somehow win the Mediterranean sea/air battles and keep all your transports alive without buying any destroyers or planes, you just don’t have enough troops to occupy the usual Italian sphere of influence.

Worse, the Italians go after the Americans – so America can counter-attack Germany’s fleet after a G4 London attack and before Italy even builds its last set of 5 submarines. Those extra 5 subs you want to buy with your “35 plus IPCs” on Italy’s fourth turn won’t leave the Mediterranean until after America’s fifth turn, and they won’t be able to reach the English Channel until after America’s sixth turn – so America has plenty of time to knock out the Germans and then either reinforce the Atlantic fleet or escape before Italy can do anything about it.

[GeneralHandGrenade]

So… the British just sailed their fleet out of the Med, flew their planes to South America, and walked everything from Africa to Calcutta so you could have the place to yourself? That doesn’t sound like them at all. Usually they put up much more of a fight. The Italians rarely have a single boat left after UK2 when I play the Allies. Usually their capital falls by the 5th or 6th turn. I’ve always been a KIF kinda guy. It would be fun to get together sometime and hash it out.

[aequitas-et-veritas]

Ok, from what i read is that a combination of:

US gets Full use of sz 102 by placing CVs there with Ftr’s and Bmbrs as air cover and DDs to fend off any lone some German SS.

While UK is building up London.

Should do the job of scaring a German Axis player away from a SL performance.

Usually the US may not buy a CV for ATL on T1 necessarily if they don’t assume a SL.
Also Japan should not react any differently to avoid a give away of an SL by G.
And basically it doesn’ t prevent SL b/c it is still the decision off G to wheter perform a SL or not.
There are ways of trying to make a SL more unlikely but at the end it will be still G’s decision.

Not scrambling and Not sending away RAF is another way to make a SL less favourable for G.

Bids can make a SL less likely as well, to name a few.

A SL should allways overtrump the UK and catch him/her offguard.

That means for G:

110/111 and 106 seabattles should be as casualty less as possible, the IC be bombed to Stoneage and back with no Bmbr lost for G to even consider a SL.

In the end the dice will have the almost last saying.

Italy may play a role:
They could indeed grab Gib and sending Ftr’s to W.Germany to aid G.
But that is about it!

[Leatherneckinlv]

GHG….I told Siredblood the same thing, I would love to play you in a game…Siredblood has seen my Sea Lion…I am always down for a game that challenges me. I learn from my mistakes or losses…high 5

[Leatherneckinlv]

Argothair….think what you want…Troll I am to you, not offended…I don’t get offended easily…I’ll play you too…I have confidence in my strategy

[Ichabod]

@Leatherneckinlv:

Taking out UK by Sea Lion has 2 points, a strategic and tactical attack. You do not by any means take out UK until turn 4. Scotland is a must. Attacking the AB and NB was senseless by the German player in the video. By turn 4 if all has gone well Germany will have a fleet and 5 Bombers…6 maybe 7 transports. turn 3 buy by Germany is 70% for Russia…
Italy will take out Morocco and Gibraltar…all of Italy’s concern is to make Sea Zone 91 a very heavy price to pay to enter. US can not and will not survive a double hit by Italy and then Germany in SZ 91
I will say this you are looking at roughly 12 Italian Subs…AB on Morocco by Italy on turn 2…another AB on Gibraltar on turn 3…Italian and German planes for scramble plus the German fleet in 110 which will have a CV, BB, CA, 2 / 3 DD and 2 to 6 SS ( the Subs truly vary as it can be as low as 2 to possible 6) 5 Bombers to strike any US approach towards Europe

Turn 5 on Italy can secure North Africa for good.

At this point Germany doesn’t have to take out Moscow. Leningrad and Stalingrad will get you 8 cities, however by this time Japan has already won the war in the Pacific.

Russia will never be a threat to Germany.

Key factors are German buys

Turn 1 a strat bomber, DD, SS and arty (30 ipc)
Turn 2 a CV, 4 APA, 1 DD, a strat bomber Arty as needed ( 68 to 73 ipc)
Turn 3 a strat bomber and rest Infantry (50 plus ipc) here you may have to purchase 1 or 2 APA if necessary
Turn 4 by Infantry Arty Mix for Russia ( 50 plus ipc)
Turn 5 A couple of ships and all tanks (77 plus closer to 82 ipc)

Italy:
Turn 1 APA (10 ipc)
Turn 2 AB and all SS (from 18 to 28 ipc)
Turn 3 AB and � all SS (33 plus IPC
turn 4 all SS (35 plus ipc)

Turn 2 Germany hopefully has 3 subs in SZ 109, a sub in SZ 106 (iffy) and an Italian fleet of some sort…least being a sub in SZ 98 to convoy the UK

The more UK buys to prevent Sea Lion, the more luxury buys Italy can make

Some variances may apply in purchases however not by much

So Yeah…go ahead and make my day

APA=Naval Transport
SS=Submarine
DD=Destroyer
CA=Cruiser
BB=Battleship
CV=Aircraft Carrier

Pretty much everything you said about Italy doing this and that seems very unlikely to me. I guess it could happen. In my experience this kind of stuff just won’t happen unless the UK’s dice only has 5s and 6s on all sides. Italy is not making 33 IPCs on turn 3 unless the UK player is brand new to the game. Italy can get Gibraltar or Morocco, but not both. If Italy can get up to 33 IPCs on turn 3, and secure Africa “for good” on turn 5, no need to execute Sea Lion in the first place; just waltz into Cairo and South Africa if you’re that good.

I’ve played over 100 games on triplea, maybe 10 in person games. What you describe just doesn’t meets an anomaly. I’ve had games where Italy blows up; but they’re outliers.

Turn 4 Sea Lion is pyhric.

[Leatherneckinlv]

Back to the strategy….I stated there are variances to the purchases depending on what transpires. UK Taranto means less resources for Germany to take Sea Lion. Taranto means a full scramble to inflict max damage on UK, this will only delay by a round the Italian strategy however UK will never be a threat again during the game. I’ll take that. No Taranto and Italy has to be vigilant as UK can exploit an Italian error.

NOOOOO US at war till turn 4, this is a key
NOOOOO DOW with Russia, make Russia declare war on Germany
Convoy raiding and strat bombing UK starting turn 2 is a key
Japan drives hard without bringing the US into the war, make the UKP do the DOW, now no penalty to Japan for going hog wild
Japan neuters the ANZAC from all that income and Sydney is now in play
Japan drives towards Moscow turn 1, so Japan will do a DOW against Russia…chase the far East forces or crush the Amur stack

There is no way a US player can ignore the Japanese. They will have to choose…split your economy and you are doomed

Turn 8 game should be clear enough as to who will win the game by turn 10 game should be over.

In many posts I have stated that UK Navy is not represented well, Russia not being able to attack Finland or doing a DOW on Germany an oversight.

there are other issues too…like DD and Strat bombers being way to overpowered. I also like the idea of a DD vs SS to be on a 1 to 1 ratio. Convoy raiding done in a completely different way, Nation specific National Advantages and unit progression and Tech (working with Siredblood on this)

My house rules game has a Strategic war and a tactical war (Supplies and fuel). My unit in the Gulf War would be nothing without the Log Trains behind us to feed the Beast.

[Leatherneckinlv]

Ichabod….I am talking a about UK turtling to prevent Sea Lion…so yeah…my whole point is the UK must not stack London…realize you will lose your capital… now place units to be the nuisance …UK can not prevent Sea Lion

[Ichabod]

@Leatherneckinlv:

Ichabod….I am talking a about UK turtling to prevent Sea Lion…so yeah…my whole point is the UK must not stack London…realize you will lose your capital… now place units to be the nuisance …UK can not prevent Sea Lion

Germany can get London if it wants to but still lose the game. The UK should be able to neuter Italy and turtle in its capital.

What do you mean by UK “must not stack London?” I always do at least 6 inf / 1 fig on UK1 placed on London. Why wouldn’t you?