• '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    I just went with how the majority of players I have seen play.  That’s 6-8 IPC of equipment for Germany, nothing for Japan.

    Russia moves 1 tank to India, not necessarily KJF, just means they don’t want India to fall on J1.
    England does SZ 30 unification, not necessarily KJF.  Just means they want to have defensive punch if Japan attacks.
    England builds IC in India, not necessarily KJF.  Just means they want to hold India for a long time.
    England puts RAF in Russia, not necessarily KJF.  I put the Bomber in Novosibirsk almost by habit now.  Just so convenient to lock a warship in Japan’s home waters.

    America builds 2 carriers, fighter in SZ 55, that’s KJF.

    If Japan gets +2 IPC in bid, then the Allied player is going to look at Russia 1 and Germany 1 to determine if they are going KJF.  Why?  Because Japan can immediately throw down 4 submarines and that can slow the allies enough to almost make it as hard to win KJF as KGF.

    And why Low Luck?  Because I don’t want you to get lucky with some ungodly attack or defense when you had almost no chance to win, and then have you end up winning the game and declare you are just a better player.  If you only have a 1.8% chance to win and you win, that does not make you a superior player or the strategy bad, it just means you got lucky.


  • To minimize luck influence more games should be played.
    Only one games is too few to make any affirmation even if it is played with low luck.

    Ivanova, you seem obsessed of losing a game at A&A in consequence of the defeat in a single battle in which the opponent have only 1,8 % chance of winning.

    If it was so A&A should not be the great game it is. And A&A IS a great game.
    A&A victory come from good strategy, good purchasing, good tactic, and good logistic. Positioning on the board is important.
    A&A games may not be lost as a result of one battle the enemy have only 1,8% chance of winning. Or he won also other battles or the chance has been miscalculated .


  • I won;t build 4 SUBs on J1 REGARDLESS of USSR1 and UK1 moves.

    LL is a completely different game than ADS, and I prefer to use League and Tournament standards for a real-world viable test.
    NO battle should ever be 100% predictable.  3 INF, 1 FIG against 2 INF SHOULD fail periodically instead of being an automatic win for the attacker.

    My challenge stands, you can accept it and put your game where your mouth is, or you can try to come up with ways to not test your ideas against someone who you have already stated explicitly (in another thread) is a superior gamer to you  :evil:

    (yes, I am no longer using a glove for the slap of this challenge, THAT was a a Field Plate Gauntlet slap)  :-D

  • 2007 AAR League

    Two things.

    First, Commander, if the UK builds an IC in India, it better be KJF or that was a pretty bad move.

    Second, Switch, 3 inf, 1 fig vs. 2 inf isn’t automatic in LL. It’s close, but not automatic. 1 bmb, 3 inf vs. 2 inf is automatic but, then again, even in ADS you can pretty much count on it. Even 2 inf, 1 fig vs. 1 inf falls pretty close to the ADS results. LL prevents things like the sz52 attack failing miserably and Japan losing half their fleet which pretty much ends the game right there.


  • ADS.

    How you deal with variables on battle results is the key to being a skilled player.

    If Jen wants sim results, then just run the SIMs and post the results.

    If she wants GAME results, then my acceptance of her challenge with two minor changes to make it a real-world test stands.

    … but not for long.  I don;t feel like arguing and debating and re-posting an acceptance of her challenge on almost every single one of her terms and having her ignore it or try to weasel out of it.

    If she is that afraid of me as a gamer, then so be it.

    I am done here unless there is an actual test game to be played…
    I have little patience for people who issue a challenge, then evade when the challenge is accepted.

    Oh, and on the sample of 3 INF & FIG on 2 INF…

    LL gives only a 2.9% chance to fail to capture, with more than half the time 2 INF, 1 FIG remaining for the attacker
    ADS is an almost 15% chance of failure to take the territory.

    There are folks on these boards who don;t attack with less than 85% odds in most cases.  So in one case, the attack may not even happen, in the other it is basically guaranteed win.  That is a pretty significant difference.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Other problem I have with games with you, Switch, is you give the impression that you will refuse games with technology.

    Besides, you won’t play a KJF game since you have too many games going on right now and not enough boards. :P


  • Fine Jen, just keep evading.

    PM me if you actually want to play an ADS, League and Tournament Rules, $7 IPC bid w/ not more than $2 to Japan test of your hypothesis (it is not a theory as you have failed to prove anything yet)

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    I’ll accept, but technology has to be on the table.  It’s in the box rules, but I’ll submit to the LHTR caveats on Technology.  But, as they are integral to my KJF strategy, they have to be on the table.


  • If you have a KJF Strat that is technology dependent, then you do NOT have a viable KJF strat.

    But I’ll accept the tech provision, LHTR 1.3

    Angel and I are heading out for the evening, so we can get this underway tomorrow if you like.  You are of course welcome to start the thread and post R1.

    I place my bid as:
    1 ARM Libya
    $2 Japan
    (copying a bid I just had used on me)

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Technology is part of the game, any strategy that incorporates it as a component, regardless of level of use, is a viable strategy, just as Strategic Bombing Runs are a viable strategy.

    National Advantages are optional rules.  Technologies are integral rules to the game.

    And just to clarify, these, all KJF games started by this thread, are test games testing the viability of KJF.

  • 2007 AAR League

    Well, Switch, the reason the Commander wants to play Low Luck is that she wants a narrower baseline with which to judge the viability of the strategy. Low Luck gives her that. If the majority of the results fall within the limits LL provides or the Allies win decisively, then it becomes a viable strategy. If the Axis can win most of the games decisively in LL, then it requires favorable dice in ADS and should be abandoned. What’s the point of playing 10 games of ADS when you can play 5 games of LL and get the same general idea about the strategy?

    You can hate LL for whatever reasons, but all you’re doing is limiting yourself. All LL does is eliminate wild dice swings. This game is primarily about outmanouvering your opponent and it is required just as much in LL as in ADS. ADS just provides more variability which is why I prefer it to LL, but I still enjoy my LL games just as much and if I lose, I will have a harder time complaining that I was screwed by the dice.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    ADS can give you fracked results.

    Just had a Japan player in a tournament quit a game against me when I moved KJF in Round 1.  He lost Japan’s entire air force (save the bomber) and all surface warships except a destroyer and a transport. (He built a destroyer and forgot to move the transport in SZ 59.)

    SZ 30 was left with Carrier, Fighter - British
    SZ 52 was left with damaged American Battleship
    SZ 59 was cleared by Chinese Fighter (He consolidated in Manchuria instead of attacking.)

    America had 1 Battleship, 2 Carriers, 2 Fighters, Destroyer in SZ 55 / SZ 52.

    I would hardly call that bad strategy or a good reflection on a KJF strategy.  It didn’t even finish round 1!


  • If you play with tech or NA’s, it’s a completely different game.
    Imo it’s not an overall “big” difference between LL and reg dice, but the mindset might be.
    It still is revised 4th. ed. right?
    The Ukr attack R1 is a good example. This battle is just a minor detail, if you do it the right way, but the mindset and
    thinking/philosophy during a game and throughout several games can be very different if you’re using reg dice or LL.

    I agree with Switch who stated that he thinks 10%-20% of all games are decided by dice rolls.
    I think it’s more like 15%-30% in reg dice games, but we all agree with that GENERALLY it is not luck that decides the
    outcome of games in more than 50% of all games. It’s well below 50%, and even with reg dice, tech and NA’s, if
    players play enough games (100 + ?) then the best player will be known by his stats.

    Jennifer, you cannot do a test KJF game with tech and claim it’s not easy to win as axis if allies try a KJF.
    With tech, one diceroll (one dice, 5 ipc!) may change the outcome of the whole game.
    Not so with reg dice, generally … :)
    Jen, you might wanna tell us why and how allies can win a KJF with tech, cause I don’t play tech, but if you do then
    all discussions of tactics, opening moves, KJF, KGF is worthless.
    I have bashed you in KJF threads, but I cannot know if a KJF could be a good overall strat as KGF with tech, and I don’t  wanna know either. With tech or NA’s you could be right, without tech and without NA’s, I know for sure that KJF is not as good as
    KGF.
    I have challenged you earlier Jennifer, if you wanna play with triplea, LL, no tech, axis bid 8, all ipc to G, one unit pr. TT.
    All of my G bid goes to Afr.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    With tech you can spend 100’s of IPC and not get any technologies either.

    Besides, there is no one tech in LHTR 1.3 that is a game winner.  Classic was the last time there was a game winner technology.

    However,there’s also no wasted techs where you get something you didn’t want.  If you get something, it’s what you wanted.

    Japan and America, in KJF want Super Submarines
    Germany and England and Russia want Rockets
    Germany, Russia, and England want Jet Fighters

    etc.

    No matter what tech you get, it can help either side.  But it IS part of the core game.  So it SHOULD be included in any test game, even if it is not used by either side, it should be available.

    It’s my biggest beef with tournaments and leagues on this site.  Other sites that run/ran leagues and tournaments allowed technologies because its part of the core of the game.  It’s not an optional rule.


  • I knew that most players who post in this forum uses reg dice, and than some ppl also uses na’s and tech.
    But it’s new to me if most players also play with na’s and tech.
    Then it’s another game.
    I’m always going back to the ukr R1 attack.
    If I use this in reg dice, I would use 3 tanks instead of 2, I think…?
    Or maybe don’t do it at all, or just strafing.
    An experienced reg dice player know what’s best. With LL the 2 tanks seems the most obvious option, and in a game there will be
    lot’s of similiar battles, in which the thinking/judging during the decision making process probably is quite different from
    what it is with pure LL players.
    In the lobby there are hardly anyone who plays with tech.
    Although most players in the triplea warclub ladder, and also regular lobby players use LL, it’s not uncommon to use reg dice.
    But tech…! Thats a different story…and a different game in a different world imo…


  • What I’m trying to say is that, I have had some interesting inputs from this board,
    and that there’s a difference from LL to reg dice if someone asks: what to do if….UK puts a ftr in…?
    If it’s a specific battle one might do different if it’s LL, the top players here use reg dice. But overall strats are the same, regardless
    of LL or reg dice.
    Allies securing afr is crucial regardless of anything but bad luck.
    I have beeen playing revised for many months, but not many years, as some of u have, and thus u also have more experience.
    But I’m learning…
    Now it seems I’m getting more confused by involving my self in this, and the KJF seems like a virus in my mind…
    It is as simple as if u play in the lobby with no tech u will get PWNED if u try to do a KJF against the best players.
    It will not help if it’s reg dice game. Dice might help u, but the KJF strat will let u down.
    Pure and simple…


  • @Nix:

    low luck sux…

    Concur.


  • @ncscswitch:

    Another member of the “general public” chiming in with the fact that I frequently give $1 or $2 to Japan from the Bid.

    $1 being the most common when I am planning a 2 TRN, 1 IC build on J1.
    $2 when I want to make the Allies think I am building 4 TRN (or when I actually DO build 4 TRN)

    Just figured I would throw that out there…

    Yeah, well, I think Jen wants to play her version.

    :lol:


  • @U-505:

    Well, Switch, the reason the Commander wants to play Low Luck is that she wants a narrower baseline with which to judge the viability of the strategy. Low Luck gives her that. If the majority of the results fall within the limits LL provides or the Allies win decisively, then it becomes a viable strategy. If the Axis can win most of the games decisively in LL, then it requires favorable dice in ADS and should be abandoned. What’s the point of playing 10 games of ADS when you can play 5 games of LL and get the same general idea about the strategy?

    You can hate LL for whatever reasons, but all you’re doing is limiting yourself. All LL does is eliminate wild dice swings. This game is primarily about outmanouvering your opponent and it is required just as much in LL as in ADS. ADS just provides more variability which is why I prefer it to LL, but I still enjoy my LL games just as much and if I lose, I will have a harder time complaining that I was screwed by the dice.

    If you have the MOST COMMON RESULT happening 5% of the time, and ninety-five variants happening 1% of the time, then it logically follows that you should expect to see the MOST COMMON RESULT every time.

    Never mind that something else happens 95% of the time.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    No, Jen just wants all the NORMAL rules of the game to be applied.  National Advantages are not NORMAL rules, thus, they are not applied.  With National Advantages going KGF is just plain stupid!  Enigma + Colonial Garrison + Wartime Economy + Marines + Russian Rail + Siberian Winter = one very dead, very fast Japan.

    That’s why I’m not testing this with National Advantages, despite your continual attempts to claim I am.  I’m just testing this for mainstream cases to prove it is a viable strategy.  Low Luck gives the best chance to test a strategy for the majority of cases.

    However, ADS is how you would normally play it in a for credit game.  Of course, I’ve just witnessed Japan hit the SZ 30 fleet and the Pearl fleet and get trounced resulting in no warships left except a solitary destroyer that it had just built that round.

    So, should I use that ADS and say it’s true all the time?  Or would the LL results of Carrier/Battleship in SZ 30 and Battleship, Carrier, 2 Fighters, Destroyer in SZ 52 have been a better result for a base line?

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