AAA Should Be Permitted to Attack

  • '17

    From my point of view, it doesn’t matter. Even the symbolized “artillery” in the game represents a “unit” which has organic vehicles to tow it, maintain it’s supply, and Soldiers to crew it. Sure, some AAA would actually be “fixed” in place and not moved about the battlefield. I do understand your point.

    However, it’s really easy for me to visualize a gun crew setting up an Anti-Air Artillery tube or like equipment. The various guns have ranges; and would be moved forward, setup, used, then re-hitched. Not as fast as tanks, but could keep up with the leg infantry. They might never get closer than 1000 yards of the front lines where Soldiers are firing machine guns at a max range like that. But what is the range of these AAA? Some of them I think was like 7000 meters which means some protection for tanks a long ways ahead of them without having to move to a new position for a time being. Often the infantry walking would be far behind the tanks. But we don’t rule out infantry being able to attack.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.8_cm_Flak_18/36/37/41

    Most famous German AAA of the war. This artillery tube would be towed about the battlefield on offense and defense. It would be setup and re-setup as needed. Takes a trained crew about 10 minutes to un-hitch, setup and operate a fire mission.

  • '17 '16

    In this special poll and case, I don’t think such AAA would unbalanced things even if you give it an offensive capacity similar to OOB defense. For 5 IPCs, a clumsy unit became functional in both NCM or CM and it is still a single opening round shots. Will become more popular probably but you cannot win a battle with this alone.
    Maybe attacking AAA get no preemptive rolls, just regular?

    About how you rationalize this AAA unit, is up to you.
    But we can assume each regular ground unit can shot down planes, so includes Anti-aircraft weapons.

    Since facilities had immobile AAgun, you get to decide what kind of heavy AAA weapon is this unit.
    Old AAguns were undestructible,  so seem to be heavily protected with concrete and defensive hard points.

    The new 2nd ed AAA seems heavier than other Anti-air capacity of ground units but lighter and maybe more mobile than IC’s AAA kind of.


  • Honestly, offensive AA wouldn’t really break the game, it will be there to annoy defensive aircraft but I think the bigger pro is that you can take loses from your AA rather than your infantry as an example.

  • '17 '16

    Since 5 IPCs is a much costlier fodder than Inf, it would be a desperate use of AAA.
    But, it is a way to increase your skew in battle by taking a no attack unit as casualty.


  • Yeah, your operation cost goes up however in a desperate attack, you will increase your odds throwing your AA guns over combat units.


  • You would only be allowed 1 AA gun per territory attack. AA gets only 1 shot at a plane before battle begins. Can take AA gun as casualty. So the most you gain for that is 1 inf.

    Just imagine that AA gun is on wheeled trailer.


  • Perhaps a useful angle from which to look at this issue is to put it in the following way: towed artillery and self-propelled artillery are both mobile units, but they differ considerably in terms of their mobility, especially when one starts getting into the larger calibers.  And a useful illustration of this fact is the situation that existed on the Western Front during WWI.  For much of the war, the opposing lines remained largely static, even though men died by the millions trying to break through the enemy lines.  Effecting a breakthrough was very costly in terms of lives, but it did get done many times; the real reason the war went nowhere in terms of gained ground actually had to do with what happened after the attacking troops initially broke through the enemy’s first-line trenches.  Initial breakthroughs were effected in part by artillery preparation.  Both sides mismanaged the tactics for doing this during the first years of the war, but got better at it later (when they realized that a short but violent bombardment was more effective than a bombardment that went on for days and days).  After the initial breakthough, however, the advancing troops would “outrun” their artillery support and would come up against the enemy’s secondary trench lines.  And that’s where the difference between towed artillery (which all WWI artillery was) and self-propelled artillery (which didn’t exist at the time) comes into play.  The massive numbers of artillery pieces which had performed the barrage that had allowed the initial breakthough to occur took a long time to be taken down, hitched up, towed – especially over the muddy, heavily cratered terrain that their own bombatrdment had created – unhitched and set back up, giving the defenders ample time to reorganize their trench lines – or even to counter-attack and recover their lost ground.

    The point here is that WWI mobile artillery, even though it was mobile, wasn’t mobile enough to allow the rapid exploitation of a breakthrough.  By contrast, self-propelled artillery – even of the heavy caliber type – doesn’t just have operational mobility (which all artillery has, all the way up to the 800mm Dora railway gun which took a couple of days to set up for firing), it also has tactical mobility (which ideally can even allow it to “shoot and scoot”, as a tactic against counter-battery fire).


  • Pretty much took care of that. Then just give the AAA gun only 1 preempted shot A1 from 1 territory away against the piece of attackers choice. Can only move AAA gun in non combat. Can only use 1 per territory. Also defends normal if attacked. So you can use both ways.


  • What this game need, is an air to air combat phase before the general combat, like the one in A&A 1914, where one part get air superiority. Then, the side with no aircrafts should be allowed to use their AA guns as protection against enemy aircraft, both in attack and defense. The current OOB rules are nuts, planes from both sides fly side by side but only engage ground units. That is not how it worked in the real war. Even without an preemptive dogfight phase, fighters should be targeting other aircrafts every round as long there are any, and then they can strafe ground units. But, AA guns defending dug in units were stronger than the light mobile AA guns that followed the charging Tanks. Maybe as other said, defending AA gun roll 3 dice, and attacking AA gun roll 1 die only. I dunno man


  • @Narvik:

    What this game need, is an air to air combat phase before the general combat, like the one in A&A 1914, where one part get air superiority. Then, the side with no aircrafts should be allowed to use their AA guns as protection against enemy aircraft, both in attack and defense. The current OOB rules are nuts, planes from both sides fly side by side but only engage ground units. That is not how it worked in the real war. Even without an preemptive dogfight phase, fighters should be targeting other aircrafts every round as long there are any, and then they can strafe ground units. But, AA guns defending dug in units were stronger than the light mobile AA guns that followed the charging Tanks. Maybe as other said, defending AA gun roll 3 dice, and attacking AA gun roll 1 die only. I dunno man

    Ya I agree but the air on air until there’s a winner will never fly in 40 OOB game.

    Maybe if the rule was there when the game first came out.


  • You’ve changed my mind and my vote Ichabod.  :-o

  • '17

    @Benito:

    You’ve changed my mind and my vote Ichabod.  :-o

    Thanks!


  • Yeah, I never liked the idea of ‘fighters’ just basically being mult attack craft and there should be some kind of air vs air.

  • '17 '16

    @SS:

    @Narvik:

    What this game need, is an air to air combat phase before the general combat, like the one in A&A 1914, where one part get air superiority. Then, the side with no aircrafts should be allowed to use their AA guns as protection against enemy aircraft, both in attack and defense. The current OOB rules are nuts, planes from both sides fly side by side but only engage ground units. That is not how it worked in the real war. Even without an preemptive dogfight phase, fighters should be targeting other aircrafts every round as long there are any, and then they can strafe ground units. But, AA guns defending dug in units were stronger than the light mobile AA guns that followed the charging Tanks. Maybe as other said, defending AA gun roll 3 dice, and attacking AA gun roll 1 die only. I dunno man

    Ya I agree but the air on air until there’s a winner will never fly in 40 OOB game.
    I agree.

    Maybe if the rule was there when the game first came out.

    @Caesar:

    Yeah, I never liked the idea of ‘fighters’ just basically being mult attack craft and there should be some kind of air vs air.

    I’m a big fan of Air vs Air combat when I play F-2-F, 1941 or 1942.2 or AA50.
    Fighter can hit enemy’s plane each combat round.
    AAA is cheaper and can defend each combat round.
    But Fighter and TcB are also cheaper.

    SS had tried it I think in his Global war.

    What make you stop from using Fighter attacking fighter or bomber in regular combat?

    Was it broken at some point?

    High price of planes and higher attrition rate, maybe?


  • Yeah, I don’t know. People complain that tactical bombers are useless for their price but a house rule that can make them useful is fighters can only engage other aircraft. Making tactical bombers instantly useful.

  • '17 '16

    I never thought about this one. Interesting.
    Fighter main use was against planes. But Fgs were able to deal damage to Destroyer and other vessels.
    But, again this would require a change in cost for Fighter, due to attrition rate.

    It is workable IMO if you totally consider air as a true third medium in which there can be battle, same as land or naval by itself.
    Subs have unlimited target on naval but cannot hit planes.
    Planes get restricted against Subs.

    AAA cannot hit land units.

  • '17

    We have used HBG 1936 AAA rules in global1940 as HR. Works great! We found defence only AAA was illogical. Most AAA were in reality towed by vehicle identical to conventional artillery. If it can move and defend why not also attack?

    HR we use, inspired by 1936 rules, modified for 1940 global:

    1. AAA unit can only fire on aircraft, both attack or defense. Maximum of 3 shots @ 1 d6, first round of combat only. One shot at each plane per AAA to a maximum of 3 planes shot per each AAA. Casualties caused selected by owner. AAA may be selected as casualties. A1/D1/M1/C oob.

    2. All facilities have built in AAA. Used only to defend strategic bombing of that facility, not depicted as a unit.

    3. AAA unit piece does not participate in defense of strategic bombing of facilities. Only used to defend unit pieces (inf. Etc.) Or attack with other units in a land zone only. Same as oob artillery, in all movement, including naval transportation. Only used in land zone AAA is located in.


  • @Baron:

    I never thought about this one. Interesting.
    Fighter main use was against planes. But Fgs were able to deal damage to Destroyer and other vessels.
    But, again this would require a change in cost for Fighter, due to attrition rate.

    It is workable IMO if you totally consider air as a true third medium in which there can be battle, same as land or naval by itself.
    Subs have unlimited target on naval but cannot hit planes.
    Planes get restricted against Subs.

    AAA cannot hit land units.

    Ya but if you have air to air combat , is it better for D12 than D6 D8 ? Last reply. If we discuss this further here it needs a new topic thread. Were going off topic.


  • Unless you can work some kind of contested board rule where air units engage over the boarder lines meaning the battle takes place technically on both sides between air units, this means that any other side that has AA guns can fire as well since obviously planes are flying around and not stationary. That could be a fun way to have “offensive AA”.


  • Just have AAA fire first then any planes left get to have combat only with other planes.

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