Okay, it sounds reasonable then. As Escorts primary purpose (from a game play perspective) is to take interceptor hits instead of bombers (the ability to shoot down interceptors seems incidental in comparison), I’m inclined to pair it with a rule that escorts can each protect one bomber, but any unprotected bombers take interceptor hits first. This way at least you have a reason for intercepting escorted bombers.
Grasshopper's 8d System - Conversion tables for 1940 Global units
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To what extent YG are you and your fellow players willing to change your Sub dynamic vs Destroyer (and planes) to get as similar to Battle of Atlantic and make Sub acting mostly like Sub, DD as Destroyer and planes like planes against Sub?
In itself D8s is already a big change.
Open bar for Subs during first two rounds, also.I tested many things on that Topic.
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Because it is lower odds than OOB, I like Attack 2 Defense 1 Cost 6,
with both iconic Stealth Move and Surprise strike always on (this make A2 first strike similar to A3 on D8 sides, and Def@1 first strike about like D@2).You can also induce more Sub-like behavior with : Sub cannot hit Sub, in addition to
Subs cannot hit planes.
It cut the possibility to use Subs as cheap DDs fodder able to retaliate against enemy Sub.Subs cannot be hit by plane is part of Sub ellusive capacity.
And requiring DD presence to hit Subs by airplanes is so a major part of OOB rule, it would be difficult to tweak this rule.Blocking Sub’s Submerge usually trap isolated group of Subs with 1 DD and bunch of aircrafts.
Also difficult to move around this rule. But not impossible.Another kind of behavior to reduce Subs padding fleet capacity, is to consider Subs and surface vessels as 2 naval group targets. So when attacking a SZ with surface warships, you have to choose which group is going to be attacked. Once done, the attacker may choose to stay or retreat against Subs, and have to retreat if it is enemy surface vessels which are still in SZ.
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I said: 2 and 1, if Subs stay at the cheap cost of 6.
Would change that up (to 3 and 2), if Subs cost a more reasonable 8. -
Increasing Sub cost to 8 will doom any Battle of Atlantic.
Subs need to be cheap in order to let Germany and Italy spend a few bucks on Naval instead of more versatile aircraft or necessary ground units. -
What would be the proper 6 sided values transferred to the 8 sided system without changing anything else in the game?
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There is no direct answer, unfortunately.
**Value D6 1 2 3 **
% 16.7 33 50
Value D8 1 2 3
% 12.5 25 37.5
OOB % Sub D16.7 A33
OOB % DD AD33Nearest OOB Sub attack is “3” or 37.5% (+ 4.2%)
Nearest OOB Sub defense is “1” or 12.5% (- 4.2%)
OOB Subs attack is same as DD, so “3” is better.
Subs defense should be half Destroyer attack value, but “1.5” does not exist.However, if added together:
A3+D1= 4 pips on D8 or 50%.
Compared to OOB A2+D1= 3 pips on D6 or 50%.So, overall what Submarine A3 D1 gains in offense, is lost on defense.
In a way, making it with similar combat pips compared to OOB sub.Considering Sub A3 D2 is mostly increasing defense combat value of Sub units.
So it is much stronger than OOB Sub: attack +4.2% defense +8.3%, sum +12.5%.
While Destroyer is only better than OOB by 8% : attack +4.2%, defense +4.2%, sum 8.4%.But now, if you consider that Sub keeps its iconic Surprise strike always on (increasing odds of survival by 1.5) in D8 system, here is the interesting thing you get:
Submarine D8
Attack 2 first strike 0.251.5 = 37.5%
Defense 1 first strike 0.1251.5 = 18.75%For comparison:
Submarine D8 when no DD is present.
Attack 3 first strike 0.3751.5 = 56.25%
Defense 2 first strike 0.251.5 = 37.5%OOB Submarine D6
Attack 2 first strike 0.331.5 = 50%
Defense 1 first strike 0.1671.5 = 25.05%Submarine D8
Attack 2 = 25%
Defense 1 =12.5%So, the first 8s dice Sub surprise attack @2 remains exactly as Destroyer “3” (37.5%) or Sub “3” when DD is present. And Sub’s defense 18.75% is near OOB 16.7% (by 2.05% margin).
In addition, this Sub A2fs D1fs preserved the 2:1 offense/defense ratio of OOB sub and similar odds.
On the opposite, Sub A2 D1 has 3 pips for 37.5% (is -12.5%) compared to 4 pips of A3 D1 and overall OOB Sub (50%).
While Sub A2fs D1fs get odds around 56.25% and overall is only 6.25% above OOB.
A3 D1 in first strike mode is 56.25+18.75= 75% and this is 18.75% above Sub A2fs D1fs.That’s why IMO the nearest combat values translation in D8 system is this Sub with Surprise strike always on.
This surprise strike always on also increase Sub survivability (since enemy’s casualties cannot retaliate) does not make its surprise attack devastating as @3 Subs; which would be: 37.5*1.5= 56.25% which is also 6.25% above OOB surprise attack odds at 50% (33%*1.5). So this is aiming at increasing Battle of Atlantic feel.
This may also satisfy Wittmann (needs to nerf Sub) because Sub’s best attack never exceed 37.5%, which is far below OOB 50%. And never exceed 18.75% as best defense, which is also below OOB 25% for @1 first strike.
Total nerfing: 12.5 + 6.25 = - 18.75% compared to OOB Sub able to do Surprise strike.
But compared to OOB Sub regular shot : 4.2 + 2.05 = +6.25% better but below Destroyer increase of +8.4% odds to hit.Destroyer can still be used as blocker against Stealth move and Submerge.
DD is also mandatory to allow aircrafts to hit Subs.
And on personal taste for better depicting strength of unit, I rather like that Destroyer have a higher direct combat value compared to Subs:
Destroyer D8
Attack 3 37.5%
Defense 3 37.5%
Cost 8Submarine D8
Attack 2 first strike (37.5%) you get a hit 25% of time
Defense 1 first strike (18.75%) get a hit 12.5% of time
Cost 6 -
Ya Baron I already posted this in YG other thread on sub change with the poll.
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@SS:
Ya Baron I already posted this in YG other thread on sub change with the poll.
I had not finished my post yet.
Do you mean this post?
@SS:
I think I got this right. Make the sub A2 D2.
It loses - 12.5 % on attack but gains back + 12.5 % on defense.
Maybe this was mentioned in YG other thread D8. Then you wouldn’t have to change sub rules. For C6 sub what is loses on attack it gets to make up for the other things subs can do.
Are you open for D6 die rolls for subs and keep the d6 values ? You are still rolling for AA, SBR and convoys.If the case, we still not advocating for the same Sub combat values.
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@SS:
For a 6 icp cost for a sub that’s pretty cheap for a A3 D2 sub. Make it A2 D2 keep special abilities and give the Germans wolf pack for every 2 subs attack at 3.
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@SS:
Make it A3 D2 with there special abilities. Always wanted stronger subs in game.
I play D12 games and your close to Attack value A4 33.3 % but in D12 defense is D2 16.6 % so for d8 your defense is 8.34 % better. Just showing numbers. I may have to raise the sub to a D3 to match the rest of the numbered dice. But subs cost 8.
A3 D2 C6 with all special abilities to strong. But would love this in a game.
Your options
A3 D1 C6. With YG proposal house rule
A2 D2 C6. Wolf packs +1 on A per 2 subs
A3 D1 C6. All German subs A3 D2 gives them a bit more
A3 D2. C8. Never will happen in this game
A3 D2 C6. Subs in Atlantic side
A3 D1. C6. Subs in Pacific side. But this would never happenYou guys for the 40 OOB game are getting closer every month towards the 39 game rules with your changing things up. :-D :-D
I believe no matter what you do for sub values you are going to need a house rule installed.
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Sounds good, let’s see what the poll says after a few more days.
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@SS:
@SS:
Make it A3 D2 with there special abilities. Always wanted stronger subs in game.
I play D12 games and your close to Attack value A4 33.3 % but in D12 defense is D2 16.6 % so for d8 your defense is 8.34 % better. Just showing numbers. I may have to raise the sub to a D3 to match the rest of the numbered dice. But subs cost 8.
A3 D2 C6 with all special abilities to strong. But would love this in a game.
Your options
A3 D1 C6. With YG proposal house rule
A2 D2 C6. Wolf packs +1 on A per 2 subs
A3 D1 C6. All German subs A3 D2 gives them a bit more
A3 D2. C8. Never will happen in this game
A3 D2 C6. Subs in Atlantic side
A3 D1. C6. Subs in Pacific side. But this would never happenYou guys for the 40 OOB game are getting closer every month towards the 39 game rules with your changing things up. :-D :-D
I believe no matter what you do for sub values you are going to need a house rule installed.
Thanks for this summary.
Do you agree with me SS, that A3 D1 is the nearest to OOB amongst KISS possibilities?
Even if this is the one choice with less vote, it keeps is charm because overall balance 4 pips on 8 sides dice is a clean 50%, same as OOB.I’m not fan of additional combined arms, but wolf pack is interesting.
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Yes probably. If it means finding the happy middle some what. But still give them there special abilities. As I said before in D12 games subs are A4 D2 C8 so as far as defense there still on line.
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@wittmann:
I said: 2 and 1, if Subs stay at the cheap cost of 6.
Would change that up (to 3 and 2), if Subs cost a more reasonable 8.I voted Att 3/8 - Def 2/8. It’s implied that the vote is based upon the OOB cost of 6 IPCs.
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Even though Baron’s numbers seem like the purist translation of oob submarine values into the 8 sided system, we can now look at unit improvement the same way cruisers are improved by 50% and battleships are improved by 66.7%. It is quite possible that Subs will land in the Att 3/8 Def 2/8 range simply because it’s needed despite their cost. Pretty much every Sea unit has improved accept for aircraft carriers (which is designed to stunt their dominate purchasing influence), so bumping subs a tad while still making them defend less than they attack is still feasible. Never the less, thank you Baron for discovering those true translated numbers. So the next question becomes… if subs remain 6 IPCs and Att 3/8 Def 2/8 like the poll is reflecting, will submarines spawn like locus?
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@Young:
Even though Baron’s numbers seem like the purist translation of oob submarine values into the 8 sided system, we can now look at unit improvement the same way cruisers are improved by 50% and battleships are improved by 66.7%. It is quite possible that Subs will land in the Att 3/8 Def 2/8 range simply because it’s needed despite their cost. Pretty much every Sea unit has improved accept for aircraft carriers (which is designed to stunt their dominate purchasing influence), so bumping subs a tad while still making them defend less than they attack is still feasible. Never the less, thank you Baron for discovering those true translated numbers. So the next question becomes… if subs remain 6 IPCs and Att 3/8 Def 2/8 like the poll is reflecting, will submarines spawn like locus?
Who knows. I’d like to think I’d still need all of the other ships for various purposes nearly the same. For offensive strength building, it might help the US. And vice versa if Japan has sacked India real quick and has a good blockade up, then they might get the chance to spam purchase them. As it is now, it seems like everyone already spam purchases subs. I don’t think this will change things much.
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YG,
Is your group going to play with 8 sided dice?
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YG,
Is your group going to play with 8 sided dice?
Eventually I believe yes, but that may be years down the road.
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Thanks YG,
at this stage, there is 2 opposite tendencies based on the poll.
The straight translation to A3 D1 is not popular while many want to boost Subs with a +12.5% vs OOB (50%) : overall A3 D2 meaning 5 pips on 8 sides = 62.5%.
Wittmann spoke for the other nerfing positions: A2 D1 (37.5%), for an overall -12.5%, below OOB.Wittmann is playing a lot in line.
YG, you play less games but you play only F-2F.
Ichabod also said:As it is now, it seems like everyone already spam purchases subs. I don’t think this will change things much.
Maybe there is a kind of local bias about Sub use or lack of use ?
I would like to know which aspect of Subs in game makes you judge Sub needs a boost or needs to be weakened.
Is it that some players rely on Destroyers as fodder instead of Subs?
Or, there is many Subs but they stick too much to the main fleet?Wanting more Battle of Atlantic-like behavior, does it means there is only few Subs after R1 to R3?
Or there is many Subs purchased ETO but not behave to depict such historical situation (which last from 1939 to 1944, mainly) ?
As an example, Italy being far more Convoy disrupted by Allies than England, by U-boats?So, can we look at the big picture?
Maybe this exchange of POV on Sub and their use might help see what can be done to make D8 system more interesting to play than D6. -
For subs costing 6 icp and a increase of +4% on A and +8% on D I don’t see a huge swarm of sub buys unless you think your +8% on defense is worth it. Better for convoy raiding and Germany ? Also what Ichabod said too ?
Germany going to buy any subs if they go sea lion ?
YG did state that subs weren’t scary enough in the Atlantic.You still need destroyers for blocking.
Only sticky point I see is the cost of 6 icp sub for some people now. Some want the A3 D1 but that makes the sub less scarier to me. Sub is slightly stronger than the destroyer.
If I played G40, I’d test this heck out of this. Only way you’ll know if it works.
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