RULE CLARIFICATION: Italy DOWs Moves to E. Poland - Germany Moves Doesn't DOW

[GeneralHandGrenade]

The rule that I cited came from page 36 of the Pacific rule book.

On page 15 of the Europe rule book it says under the heading “Powers Not At War With One Another”;
“…nor can another power move land or air units into or through it’s territories…”

I think we should get Kreighund to clarify cuz that seems pretty black and white to me.

[Elsaß-Lorraine]

@GeneralHandGrenade:

I think we should get Kreighund to clarify cuz that seems pretty black and white to me.

No kidding. I looked in the Europe rule book but I didn’t see anything in the political situations of Germany, the USSR, or Italy mentioning anything related to moving into originally-controlled Russian territory while not at war with Russia

[GeneralHandGrenade]

That was the Pacific rule book where it said that.

[variance]

I asked this in 2012

https://www.harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/search.php?keywords=Italy+East+Poland&t=4280&sf=msgonly

[Leatherneckinlv]

Yes you can, that territory is an axis territory under the control of the Italians. If that were the case on G1 you can’t land a fighter in Northern Italy… It’s pretty simple to me…why overthink stuff…easy enough yes the German player may fortify

[GeneralHandGrenade]

Thanks variance.

They need to change the Pacific rule book if they want to interpret the rule that way. I did notice a difference between the 2 rulebooks and it appears that they are taking the Europe interpretation. I wish they would just make a Global rulebook and put all of the rules in there so there wouldn’t be 2 different rules regarding the same situation. I wonder if there are other examples where the rules don’t line up.

[Leatherneckinlv]

How do you figure that shadow hawk? I totally disagree with you

Now question to all…situations like this how do youse resolve it during a game?

[Leatherneckinlv]

It will have an Italian control marker….so it is Italian territory ShadowHawk

[GeneralHandGrenade]

@ShadowHAwk:

@GeneralHandGrenade:

Thanks variance.

They need to change the Pacific rule book if they want to interpret the rule that way. I did notice a difference between the 2 rulebooks and it appears that they are taking the Europe interpretation. I wish they would just make a Global rulebook and put all of the rules in there so there wouldn’t be 2 different rules regarding the same situation. I wonder if there are other examples where the rules don’t line up.

Well the rules are clear, you cannot move into or through russian countries. The country isnt russian when its italian.

The pacific situation is quite different as russia isnt a player there at all and the area is basicaly classified as unpassable for the game.

Check the Pacific book under the Soviet Union Political Situations. It specifically says ANY originally controlled Soviet territories. How clear is that?

[Leatherneckinlv]

GHG, it is not controlled by the Soviets…How clear is that…It is Italian controlled

[variance]

Hey guys, what happens if Italy declares war, Germany rolls into Italian controlled former Communist territory without declaring war, and casually parks a sub in z125?  Chew on that one.

[Leatherneckinlv]

It blows my mind that people can’t interpret that….it is so clear…situation like this I would stand my ground…I am pretty flexible in most cases…but stuff like this…nope

[Leatherneckinlv]

SZ 125 would not be effected and Russia would collect their bonus…German sub is neutral to the Russians

[variance]

axis warship

[Leatherneckinlv]

It is neutral though. Not at war with Russia yet. My opinion on that…just logic

Kinda like Finland in Global War 36…an attack by the Russians on a Finnish territory with German occupants is not a deceleration of war on Germany but the German troops can defend.

[GeneralHandGrenade]

@Leatherneckinlv:

GHG, it is not controlled by the Soviets…How clear is that…It is Italian controlled

The key word in the phrase is “originally” controlled. That means a territory on the board that contains a roundel belonging to a nation when the game began, in this case Russia. I accept the fact that the rule was changed when they wrote the Europe rule book. No problem. However, don’t put me down because the rule was written wrong in the Japan rule book. I didn’t write the book.
You’re not stating what the rule book says, you’re just spewing your opinion of what you think the Japan rule book should say.
Read the book instead of putting me down.

[Leatherneckinlv]

I am not spewing anything….quite clear to me it is an Italian territory now…I totally disagree with your stance as that also comes from the Pacific rule book making it irrelevant…the fighting on the European side is quite different…I interpret that to apply at the least to the Japanese. In my game that would be allowed. Baffles me that a control marker would not be sufficient to explain who owns that territory…My opinion is you are wrong on this one GHG… I don’t say this in a confrontational tone…I say this as my opinion that I stand by…If you were playing just Europe…then what?..So that rule from Pacific becomes insignificant

[Leatherneckinlv]

Does make me wonder how this would be resolved at Young Grasshoppers tournament….Situations like this with so many games are bound to occur

[variance]

Well Larry Harris himself will be there to correct any misconceptions

[simon33]

@GeneralHandGrenade:

I don’t think that’s correct but I could be wrong. Even though it doesn’t explicitly say that in the Germany Political Situations it does say something the Soviet Union Political Situations section.

Specifically speaking, it states that while they are not at war with Russia;
" (Germany and Italy) may not move units into or through any original Soviet territories or Soviet controlled territories."

Remember that nobody, not even their allies, are allowed to move into Soviet territories, nor can they move out of them. So Germany would have to declare war on Russia in order to move there, even on a ncm.

Hi GHG, that is referring to a situation that USSR is at peace with the European Axis. If Italy and USSR are at war, then the clause does not apply.

BTW, I can’t find that exact wording in the pacific rules.