Here is a kind of entertaining Russian documentary…
It doesn’t have the best production values (clearly going for a history channel type vibe, with green screen and cgi) but there are lots of cool maps and discussion of doctrine. And a pretty good breakdown of the invasion, with the play by play.
I was watching it earlier while I was sick with the flu, as a way to keep me distracted. Which is why I had it on the mind haha.
:-D
Thanks for the link. I will listen to it.
Basically, would you like something like that?
Archangel: 2 Infantry
Baltic States (Russian): 1 Infantry, 2 Tanks, 1 Fighter
Ukraine S.S.R. (Russian): 1 Infantry, 1 Tank, 1 Fighter, 2 Tanks
Belorussia (Russian) : 1 Infantry, 1 Tank, 1 Fighter
West Russia (Russian): 2 Infantry, 2 Tactical bombers
Germany changes:
Germany: 4 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 2 AAAs, 2 Tanks, 1 Fighter, 1 TacBomber, 1 Strategic Bomber, 1 Industrial Complex
Northwestern Europe: 1 Infantry, 1 Tank, 1 Fighter, 1 TacBomber, 1 Industrial Complex
Norway: 3 Infantry, 1 AAA, 1 Fighter
Finland: 3 Infantry
Poland: 4 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 2 Tanks, 1 TacBomber, 1 Fighter
Bulgaria Romania: 3 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 2 Tanks +1 Fighter, 1 Tactical bomber
I think it would be fun. Even if many Russian units are destined to die, at least it gives a better sense of the proportional scale of the forces involved.
In A&A Russia is always under represented. Just to give an idea of the numbers, the Soviet Union suffered more casualties in the first few weeks of the war than the Americans sustained over the entire conflict. They also lost like over 4,000 aircraft and 10,000 tanks just in the first month after the Germans invaded. So it seems like the opening turn should show the Germans knocking them down in a big way, not just a handful of infantry here and there. You could still end up with a situation (for game balance) where Russia is relatively weak by the end of the first round, but it would come after an epic battle, a lot of heavy hitters going toe to toe on that first turn. With the Russians suffering catastrophic losses.
The Soviets are quick to set up already, and you really don’t need that many more sculpts or huge stacks to pull it off. Just a different distribution of hitpoints along the front. Personally, I like the idea of a do or die German opener, where they really put the Soviets on blast. An opener that fits a bit more with the history, rather than one where the Luftwaffe is always used first and foremost for annihilating the Royal Navy, which is the usual A&A script in pretty much every edition regardless of the start date.
Oztea’s set up did a nice job of it on the global map, but I don’t know that you need all that many units to do it justice, just enough to give it the right flavor. Like “oh hell, what just happened to the Red Army!” So the Allies still have a nice opening shock when the Axis go on the march.
I duplicated your post here:
@Argothair:
P.S. You sent me the old saved game with Cruiser in Baltic Sea…
Sorry! I have attached the correct saved game to this comment.
it seems Australian M3 Cruiser is too mobile and DOW on Japan before Japan DOW.
I don’t agree; I think the problem is that the Caroline Islands need to start with slightly more Japanese ships. If instead of 2 DD, 2 transports you give the Carolines 1 CA, 1 DD, 2 transports, then the chance that Britain sinks the transports is only 9% instead of 35%, and so the early British DOW becomes stupid.
Baltic TP was not intended to be unhistorically use as a way to amphibious assault Karelia or Baltic States on G1
Fair enough; part of why Germany couldn’t do that was because Russia did have some small boats sitting in Leningrad’s harbors. I still think that the best match up in the Baltic would be Russia’s 1 DD vs. Germany’s 1 CA, 2 SS, 1 DD, 1 transport. A German Baltic BB overrates the German Baltic Fleet, and a Russian Baltic CA overrates the Russian Baltic Fleet.
I will move 1 Canadian DD with the other lonely DD in Northern Sea.
The kill on Canadian TP will be easier.I would prefer to simply give Germany 1-2 more starting infantry to use as garrisons – I like that at least one British Atlantic fleet ought to survive the G1 attacks! It would have been very strange historically if the entire British Home Fleet and the Canadian Navy were both wiped out in mid-1941, especially with the Home Fleet still parked safely in Scapa Flow, Scotland instead of coming down to the more-vulnerable English Channel.
The file name is still the same than previous ones.
I would appreciate it if you would change the file names, even if only by giving them new numbers, so that it’s easier for me to keep track of them.
Here is below an adjusted setup based on your comments.
Thanks! I’ll try it tonight. After that I may send you my own suggestion for a 1941 San Francisco setup, if you have any interest in that sort of thing.
M3 Cruiser and TP are a real challenge to adjust in the opening round. Believe me, it is full of surprise where you can move IJN 5 TPs and 1 Cruiser.
I would not move the IJN Cruiser anywhere from Coastal China.
You may even try an early US invasion with 2 Carolinas TPs and 1 Japan TP. It is achievable.
It is a kind of more epic Japanese opening. If it is too easy, US West coast will need an additional unit.
Russian Cruiser and German BBs are relative to each other strength and this Soviet Fleet was the biggest amongst the four Soviet ones:
The Soviet Baltic Fleet was the largest of the four fleets which made up the Soviet Navy during World War II…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Sea_campaigns_(1939–45)#Kriegsmarine
Since all others were figured by 1 Submarine and 1 Destroyer, I believe 1 Cruiser and 1 Submarine might fit in.
But, a single Cruiser might work too.
(I like the opening Surprise you can get with Cruiser and Submarine.
The Russian player may decide to submerge or to take sub as casualty.)
Also, there is only 1 Battleship and 1 Cruiser to figure the British Battleship in Indian Ocean.
British Admiralty remained concerned about Tirpitz as long as it wasn’t destroyed by heavy bombs and kept more warships in UK just in case to intercept her and protect his merchants fleet from her.
Let’s pretend for now…
We might need to adjust Destroyer numbers between SZ6 and SZ10. If there is less attacking planes because NWE has only 1 TcB and Finland 1 Fg.
5 Atlantic Submarines might already stretched thin.
If your suggestion for 1941 set up is radically different I will be all confused. :oops:
But if it is for making a German’s Baltic Cruiser and changing a few units here and there. I’m all ears. :-D
However, I do like what Black Elk is suggesting about giving opening to Barbarossa an historical feel of what was lost by Soviet Union.
I’m more inclined to picture a few important flashes of 1941 war against Allies (Russia, UK and US).
I think it would be fun. Even if many Russian units are destined to die, at least it gives a better sense of the proportional scale of the forces involved.
An opener that fits a bit more with the history, rather than one where the Luftwaffe is always used first and foremost for annihilating the Royal Navy, which is the usual A&A script in pretty much every edition regardless of the start date.Oztea’s set up did a nice job of it on the global map, but I don’t know that you need all that many units to do it justice, just enough to give it the right flavor. Like “oh hell, what just happened to the Red Army!” So the Allies still have a nice opening shock when the Axis go on the march.
I prefer less units than more, but Axis starting with lower income and money needs a huge boost of setup units.
However, it may be possible to tweak the one time starting money for Axis pretending it is the effect of extended preparation and build up to war which appear finally at the end of first turn.
For example, we can say that Germany has 40 IPCs to start with and Japan 30 IPCs.
Then, on G1 and J1 income phase it will be according to TTs IPCs value.
Next time, I will named file with a number something like: 1941TirpitzG1v1.01, v1.02, v1.03, etc.
When I will put a Cruiser in Baltic Sea, it will be 1941AdmiralScheerG1v1.xx
Cruiser Admiral Scheer was buddy buddy with Tirpitz, much like Bismarck and Cruiser Prinz Eugen.
P.S Being somewhat a bit different from traditional A&A opener is also a reason to use Battleship unit in Baltic SZ.
Here you go man. Sorry if I was a little confused at what you are trying to do there with separate threads. Was just responding to Argothair. I don’t know what the specifics of the m2 vs m3 situation entail. It’s just a general idea for how to do the Russian set up with an airblitz option for G vs W. Russia that would be different than what we’ve usually seen in the past. Not a specific recommendation based on the draft gamefile.
Yeah pretty much.
It basically using overwhelming airpower to flatten an enemy TT, when you expect to take air casualties (hopefully relatively few air casualties, like maybe putting one of two aircraft of your own at risk) for the chance to knock off more significant enemy TUV.
The idea in this case is that you’d want to kill the heavy hitting Soviet fighters early, before they can move and be protected by a ton of cheap infantry fodder.
It is actually the same principle that’s always been at work with the Royal Navy, (trading air for ships, before they can move to converge with defensive carrier support) except here you also apply the idea to the Red Airforce.
On the ground, Germany will always try to advance at least 1 tile in, so the idea of putting tanks instead of infantry on the front lines, is just a way to show how the German panzers with better armor and support, where able to roll over the T 26s. There’s also a cool clip in that Soviet Storm doc where they discuss formations. How the Soviets set up their lines with the anti tank guns at equidistant intervals across a huge front eschelon, and the Germans attacking in narrow V shaped wedges (but deep with Panzers) were able to punch holes in these line, with way more tanks in the same area, and then just turn and blast down the line.
So it makes sense if you just kind of reflect those doctrinal advantages/disadvantages by having the soviet armor naked (without infantry cover.) So G still just flattens em, but at least the set up looks more a lot like the forces in 41 on the eve of battle. Russia should really have the largest forces on the game map, but get rocked right out the gate.
Then by the time Russia recovers, you can consider that the crappy T 26s have been replaced by the T 34s, and if Russia buys more fighters then those dudes are like the rebuilt red air force.
I think you could also do a lot for game interest by having more of the remaining Soviet heavy hitting TUV (the stuff that doesn’t die in Barbarossa) positioned at the center, and able to go either east or west. Depending on how the Allies want to play vs Japan. That way you give Stalin a way to stay above water, or to impact a possible Pacific play, but without having it all in place for immediate counter offensives against the initial German push.
ps. here is just a quick draft example of how the Barbarossa airblitz thing I mentioned might look. In the example below you have a naked Red fighter in West Russia. Germany has 3 fighters in range… 2 in Poland and 1 in Romania, so they go take on the red fighter 3 to 1, with a real good chance of killing it before it can escape.
Its still a calculated risk, and a TUV trade, but it forces an interesting decision, where the German player has to decide… is it better to risk a likely 10 ipcs of the Luftwaffe right away, to kill a Russian fighter immediately? Or wait, and then face a situation where the fighter probably won’t be exposed again until the final battle for Moscow?
Hitting it early makes a lot of sense there, because you prevent several rounds where the unit can be used in light trading, and probably save yourself way more than 10 TUV in the long run by killing it outright.
:-D
All right, all right, you can have your darn Baltic battleship! :-)
So here is my proposal, attached. In some theaters, I have deliberately gone in a somewhat different direction than you, Baron. Even though your ideas are already good, I wanted to explore some additional ideas and add them to the discussion.
San Francisco Rules
Destroyers cost $5, have A1 D1 M2, get 1 anti-sub roll @ 1.
Transports and Cruisers move 3 spaces!
Tactical Bombers cost $10, have A3 D3 M4, bomb factories @ 1d6 damage, escort/intercept @ 1, & get 1 anti-sub roll @ 1.
Fighters cost $10, have A3 D4 M4, boost a Tac Bomber’s attack by +1, escort/intercept @ 2, & get 1 anti-sub roll @ 1.
Strategic Bombers cost $5, move 6, are useless in normal combat, and can bomb factories @ 1d6 damage.
Axis Surprise Round
To use my setup, both the Germans and the Japanese effectively get a “surprise” round. I have not changed the .xml, but as a player-enforced rule, Germany begins the game, then the UK does nothing but collect income on its turn, then Japan moves, then the USA does nothing but collect income on its turn, then Russia gets a full turn, then Germany takes its second turn, then play continues in normal order with all players taking full turns (G2 -> UK -> Japan -> USA -> Russia -> G3 -> UK…)
Other Player-Enforced Rules
You must own Gibraltar to move anything except submarines between SZ 13 <-> SZ 14
You must own NW Europe to move anything except submarines between SZ 5 <-> SZ 6.
The Daradanelles (near Turkey) are open to all players.
Any player may enter and capture the orange neutral countries. They do not “remember” their owner.
The factory in Szechuan produces only infantry, and it is destroyed if captured by the Axis.
If you choose to move any type of ship through a sea zone containing one or more enemy submarines without stopping to fight those submarines, you must roll one die per enemy submarine (it does not matter how many ships you move, only how many enemy subs there are). Your fleet takes one hit for each “1” rolled on the dice. If you move through more than one sub-infested sea zone, repeat this process.
If you like this map, it’s because I’m standing on the shoulders of giants – many thanks to those who have worked on the San Francisco Experiment and the 1941 Redesign, without which this would not be possible.
Note that there are 2 South African infantry, a South African British fleet (1 DD, 1 CV, 1 ftr, 1 TacB) and a Midway Japanese fleet (2 CV, 2 ftr, 2 TacB, 1 SS) not pictured in the screenshot, along with some Americans in Hawaii, San Francisco, etc – if you can’t open the save game file, then imagine a slightly upgraded version of what the Americans start with OOB in AA50 1941.
Thanks Black Elk,
actually I’m glad same post is in both thread.
And I’m very satisfied that Argothair push its own 1941 in this one thread.
It will be easier to follow both M3 scenarii.
Here below, I pushed further the envelop on Fighters and Tactical Bombers in Russia.
I followed you in Yakut and Vologda.
I’ll wait and see for further changes in Africa.
Quite intriguing what your doing with your map and Vichy TTs.
Axis Surprise Round
To use my setup, both the Germans and the Japanese effectively get a “surprise” round. I have not changed the .xml, but as a player-enforced rule, Germany begins the game, then the UK does nothing but collect income on its turn, then Japan moves, then the USA does nothing but collect income on its turn, then Russia gets a full turn, then Germany takes its second turn, then play continues in normal order with all players taking full turns (G2 -> UK -> Japan -> USA -> Russia -> G3 -> UK…)
Russia gets its first full turn before Germany second turn?
UK and USA can purchase and place or just collect income?
OK, I saw they have no money on first round.
Baron, I just took a look at the second version of your “Tirpitz” file. It looks extremely historical! This is the most historical 1941 setup I have ever seen. I like it well enough, and I would play it, but my guess is that the Axis will need a bid. Just as the Axis were historically underdogs in 1941 (even if they seemed fearsome at the time), so your very accurate 1941 setup puts the Axis at a disadvantage to win. Given average dice and equal skill, the Axis empires will expand from this starting position, but it is unlikely that they will expand fast enough or far enough to conquer the world – the Allies have enough room to retreat without losing any capitals, the Allies are very well-positioned to secure naval superiority everywhere outside the Mediterranean, and the Allies are out-producing the Axis 120 IPCs to 48 IPCs. Even if the Axis capture 30 IPCs worth of territory in the first two turns, that still makes the economy 90 IPCs to 78 IPCs in the Allies’ favor, and with M3 transports and no long-range combat bombers, that 12 IPC edge is enough for the Allies to build a successful invasion fleet. At least, that’s my opinion.
To see how hard it is to gain more than 30 IPCs in the first two turns, take a look at this territory list:
Borneo: 4
West Indies: 4
Kwangtung: 2
Yunnan: 1
Anhwei: 1
Malaya: 1
Burma: 1
New Guinea: 1
Western Australia: 1
French Madagascar: 1
Buryatia: 1
Soviet Far East: 1
Japanese Subtotal = 19 IPCs
Karelia: 2
Belorussia: 2
West Russia: 2
Ukraine: 2
Egypt: 2
Trans-Jordan: 1
Sudan: 0
German Subtotal = 11 IPCs
Total Axis Gains = 30 IPCs
Maybe if you do really well as the Axis you gain 31 or 32 IPCs in the first two turns, without losing anything anywhere. But even 30 IPCs of conquest is already a lot to ask of the Axis, and in my opinion it’s not quite enough for the Axis to have a fair chance to win.
Russia gets its first full turn before Germany second turn?
UK and USA can purchase and place or just collect income?
OK, I saw they have no money on first round.
Yes, that’s right. Russia gets a full turn, and UK/USA have no money on first turn, so they have nothing to purchase.
G1 (full turn)
UK1 (skipped)
J1 (full turn)
US1 (skipped)
R1 (full turn)
G2 (full turn)
UK2 (full turn)
J2 (full turn)
US2 (full turn)
R2 (full turn)
G3 (full turn)
UK3 (full turn)
J3 (full turn)
US3 (full turn)
R3 (full turn)
Etc.
Black Elk, I’m sorry you’ve been laid up with the flu! I hope you feel better soon.
Baron, thanks for the thoughtful comments. :-)
Annnd I just looked at Tirpitz v1.01. Again, very interesting. Looks like you’re adding more German infantry to compensate for the extra Russian airplanes. Oddly, given the Barbarossa start, that may work in Germany’s favor!
One interesting option with v.1.01 for Germany is to skip the attack on Egypt altogether, and send both transports to attack the Caucasus. Focus on sinking Scottish fleet with submarines, and use all or nearly all of Luftwaffe to kill Russian tanks/planes on G1. If you take Baltic, Belorussia, Ukraine, and (amphibiously) Caucasus while clearing West Russia of the tactical bombers, then Russia winds up pretty crippled! Baltic transport can be used on non-combat to ferry Finnish troops to Baltic States, and then the 5 inf, 1 art in Karelia are out of position for good counterattacks on R1 – they can take (empty) Finland, but it’s only worth 1 IPC. That leaves only Moscow and Vologda as significant Russian offensive forces.
For an extreme gambit, you can pair this German opening with a Japanese attack all-in against Russia on J1, forgoing some of the money islands in favor of all-out attack on Siberia. E.g., take whatever’s undefended, but don’t stress about it, and unload at least 3 of your transports in Buryatia and Soviet Far East. Could be fun!
Black Elk, I’m sorry you’ve been laid up with the flu! I hope you feel better soon.
Baron, thanks for the thoughtful comments. :-)
I’m quite happy too you feel better.
There is a big issue with the two turns Axis blitz setup : Japan finished its J2 with: 5 Inf, 1 Art, 1 Tank in Western USA and I still owned money islands.
I had to find that it needs edit from Neutral to Japan TTy.
But it is a very good idea to simulate these TTs.
If Allies have too much money in Tirpitz setup, it might be an idea to add money islands as Neutral so 9 IPCs and more if Persia and Madagascar are included. UK will be poor on starting IPCs.
Yeah, maybe I didn’t think that through. Maybe no need to skip US1, so something like:
G1 (full turn)
UK1 (skipped)
J1 (full turn)
US1 (full turn)
R1 (full turn)
G2 (full turn)
UK2 (full turn)
J2 (full turn)
US2 (full turn)
R2 (full turn)
Etc.
It is not like USA has that many attack options anyway in the opening setup, especially since Japan goes before America anyway.
Annnd I just looked at Tirpitz v1.01. Again, very interesting. Looks like you’re adding more German infantry to compensate for the extra Russian airplanes. Oddly, given the Barbarossa start, that may work in Germany’s favor!
One interesting option with v.1.01 for Germany is to skip the attack on Egypt altogether, and send both transports to attack the Caucasus. Focus on sinking Scottish fleet with submarines, and use all or nearly all of Luftwaffe to kill Russian tanks/planes on G1. If you take Baltic, Belorussia, Ukraine, and (amphibiously) Caucasus while clearing West Russia of the tactical bombers, then Russia winds up pretty crippled! Baltic transport can be used on non-combat to ferry Finnish troops to Baltic States, and then the 5 inf, 1 art in Karelia are out of position for good counterattacks on R1 – they can take (empty) Finland, but it’s only worth 1 IPC. That leaves only Moscow and Vologda as significant Russian offensive forces.
For an extreme gambit, you can pair this German opening with a Japanese attack all-in against Russia on J1, forgoing some of the money islands in favor of all-out attack on Siberia. E.g., take whatever’s undefended, but don’t stress about it, and unload at least 3 of your transports in Buryatia and Soviet Far East. Could be fun!
IDK if it is legal when naval combat taking place in same SZ than an unused TP if it can ferry troops in NCM.
Triple A forbid it…
The Baltic: 2 Tanks 1 Fgs, Bielorussia: 2 Tanks 1 Fg and Ukraine: 2 Tanks and 2 Fgs, gives a much higher unpredictable results. And with 2 Fgs and 2 TcBs able to destroy 2 TcBs in WestRussia, it increases it too.
Finally, your idea to put 1 Fg and 1 TcB in Finland allows to choose between Archangel: 1 Inf and 1 Fg or attacking Scapa Flow: BB, DD and TP. It may allows Russia to end with 2 Fgs and 1 TcB if Germany choose to attack UK, or if Fg survived the TcB A4 and Fg A3. It is a tough call against 1D4 and 1D2.
Maybe, I would just put a single Fg there but add the Infantry unit in West Russia with 2 TcBs. That way, 7 attack points against 4 defense point is more tempting. And, maybe 1 Tactical bomber might survived because Germany’s call off the attack…
It is more interesting for Russia to roll in such opening. There is a lot of potential surprised with D3 Tank and D4 Fgs instead of usual D2 Infantry…
If bid is needed, the first thing I will add is to give Germany start up 40 IPCs and Japan 30 IPCs to begin with.
Germany probably needs it to be able to add at least 1 Sub in the water.
After the initial assault of G1 Barbarossa, there is only a few Infantry left in Norway and Finland.
Maybe 1 or 2 survived in each of Baltic States, Bielo and Ukraine.
If any TT have no Infantry buffer, it might open an interesting Soviet counter-attack to destroy as much heavy hitter as possible.
Maybe the amphibious assault on Caucasus is something which might off balance things… I cannot say.
Baron, I just took a look at the second version of your “Tirpitz” file. It looks extremely historical! This is the most historical 1941 setup I have ever seen. I like it well enough, and I would play it, but my guess is that the Axis will need a bid. Just as the Axis were historically underdogs in 1941 (even if they seemed fearsome at the time), so your very accurate 1941 setup puts the Axis at a disadvantage to win. Given average dice and equal skill, the Axis empires will expand from this starting position, but it is unlikely that they will expand fast enough or far enough to conquer the world – the Allies have enough room to retreat without losing any capitals, the Allies are very well-positioned to secure naval superiority everywhere outside the Mediterranean, and the Allies are out-producing the Axis 120 IPCs to 48 IPCs. Even if the Axis capture 30 IPCs worth of territory in the first two turns, that still makes the economy 90 IPCs to 78 IPCs in the Allies’ favor, and with M3 transports and no long-range combat bombers, that 12 IPC edge is enough for the Allies to build a successful invasion fleet. At least, that’s my opinion.
To see how hard it is to gain more than 30 IPCs in the first two turns, take a look at this territory list:
Borneo: 4
West Indies: 4
Philippines: 2
Kwangtung: 2
Yunnan: 1
Anhwei: 1
Malaya: 1
Burma: 1
New Guinea: 1
Western Australia: 1
French Madagascar: 1
Buryatia: 1
Soviet Far East: 1
Japanese Subtotal = 21 IPCs
Karelia: 2
Belorussia: 2
West Russia: 2
Ukraine: 2
Egypt: 2
Trans-Jordan: 1
Sudan: 0German Subtotal = 11 IPCs
Total Axis Gains = 32 IPCsMaybe if you do really well as the Axis you gain 31 or 32 IPCs in the first two turns, without losing anything anywhere. But even 30 IPCs of conquest is already a lot to ask of the Axis, and in my opinion it’s not quite enough for the Axis to have a fair chance to win.
Thanks Argo,
I like IC in French West Africa. It allows Germany to put 1 Vichy Infantry end of G1.
I would like to know why you put so much UK units in Africa?
Germany cannot afford that much investment over there.
I hope it will work eventually. This is something to make a setup, another to depict a situation and a third to make it workable and funny, and a fourth to make it balanced.
One of my fear is about PTO draging too much IPCs for UK.
Making it like an all investment there, so Russia is overwhelmed or all-in in ETO but Japan is growing monster unhindered.
Even, money islands IPCs might be needed by UK to built something in both theatre.
Thanks!
My goal in Africa is to reflect UK’s historical forces on the continent, and also to make it optional for Germany to attack Egypt on G1. In most setups, Africa gets 4-5 UK units, South Africa gets 1-2 British units, and the rest of the continent is empty. This means that if Germany can conquer Egypt, then the rest of the continent is almost a freebie. US/UK have to do crazy things like ship in troops from India (allowing India to fall to Japanese) or dedicate entire US budget to repeatedly ferrying troops to all of west Africa (instead of a limited, one-time ferry for Operation Torch in Morocco). Meanwhile, Egypt is usually strong enough to attack Libya on UK1 if Egypt is not attacked. So of course, in 70% of games, Germany attacks Egypt hard on G1, and in the other 30% of games, Germany quietly reinforces Libya to prepare for a G2 attack on Egypt. What if Egypt were not such a big deal? Yes, Egypt is nice, it is worth $2, but behind Egypt is the rest of Britain’s armies. This makes the north African theater just one relatively minor theater – less important than either Barbarossa or the Battle of the Atlantic. In previous versions, you would never see Germany building a submarine in the Atlantic at the expense of an extra tank to ship to North Africa, and you almost never see an Italian naval attack on Ukraine / Caucasus. So, maybe we can turn those into real options.
It’s possible that I need to decrease British Egyptian forces to compensate. I think right now Egypt is reduced to 3 inf, 1 tnk (instead of OOB 2 inf, 1 art, 1 tnk, 1 ftr). Maybe that needs to drop down even lower, to something like 2 inf, 1 tnk, 1 AAA.
Germany starts with 2 transports in the Med, and they will likely survive through at least the end of G2, maybe the end of G3 or even G4. So that is potentially 16 units (4 turns * 2 transports * 2 units per transport) that Germany can ship to Africa on top of the starting German Afrika Korps. I agree that Germany cannot afford to ship 16 units to Africa, but what about something like 7 inf, 2 art, 1 tnk ($35) spread out over 3 turns, part of which will come from starting forces in Italy and Southern Europe? That does not sound unreasonable to me if Germany wants to emphasize the African campaign. If Germany truly cannot afford that, maybe Germany needs more starting infantry in Europe.
I think we can make this work. As you say, it will take several tries, but we will not give up!
If UK needs the money islands, it is easy to give UK the money islands. That is not a problem; playtesting will tell us the answer. My opinion is that it is OK for Britain to be a little poor, because a strong Russia means that Britain does not have to rush fighters to Moscow or rush transports to France – if Britain wants to focus its budget on S. Africa / India / ANZAC in the first few turns, maybe building a couple of DDs or ftrs for the Batltle of the Atlantic, and then pivot to invading France/Norway once Japan is contained, that is fine with me.
Here is a more Axis bias setup v.1.02:
Dakar is German and Japan start with way more Transports: 7 TPs instead of 5.
But Philippines, Wake and Midway are now juicy target to get rid of. 1 Fg and 2 TcBs to destroy.
Archangel is more appealing, but West Russia might need Finland aircrafts (1 Fg and 1 TcB) to get a fast decisive victory: up to 6 planes can reach West Russia: 3 Fgs and 3 TcBs. But you cannot support attack on UK’s Battleship if you go that way.
Archangel: 1 Fg
West Russia: 2 TcBs and 1 AAA
Ukraine is still: 2 Tanks, 2 Fighters
Belorussia still: 2 Tanks, 1 Fighter
Baltic States still: 2 Tanks, 1 Fighter
Philippines: 1 TcB and 1 Infantry
Wake: 1 Fighter
Midway: 1 Tactical Bomber
Iwo Jima: 2 Infantry
Okinawa: 3 Infantry
French West Africa: 1 Industrial Complex
I tried to provide a few pictures below, but it is too much KB, more than 1536 KB…
See post below for complete set-up.
I’m not very apt with pictures.
I will need help to be able to directly put on a post.
Sorry…
I can help post your pictures tonight.
I’m struggling to figure out the Axis surprise round. It’s very important to me that both Germany and Japan move before the UK. But if we keep the standard Russia -> Germany -> UK -> Japan -> USA turn order, then the only way I can think of to give Japan a move before the UK is to let Germany go twice before the UK even goes once, which sounds like a recipe for losing London. At a minimum, that means that Germany is going to be able to unload way too many infantry in Egypt / Trans-Jordan, even with the additional British troops in sub-Saharan Africa.
Maybe the solution is to reduce Germany back down to one Mediterranean transport? This would help nerf the G1 attacks on Egypt and the Caucasus, but at the cost of making the G1 opener more boring / more similar to previous editions. If Germany builds a second (or even a third) Med transport on G1, then they could still potentially come up with a massive attack on Egypt on G2, before Britain has a chance to react, but at least that’s more expensive for Germany.
The only other thing I can think of is to just edit the turn order in the .xml file to be Germany -> Russia -> Japan -> UK -> US, and tell people to install my .xml file if they want to play the game, but I know that does tend to drive people away. We have enough files already.
Thoughts?
I can help post your pictures tonight.
I’m struggling to figure out the Axis surprise round. It’s very important to me that both Germany and Japan move before the UK. But if we keep the standard Russia -> Germany -> UK -> Japan -> USA turn order, then the only way I can think of to give Japan a move before the UK is to let Germany go twice before the UK even goes once, which sounds like a recipe for losing London. At a minimum, that means that Germany is going to be able to unload way too many infantry in Egypt / Trans-Jordan, even with the additional British troops in sub-Saharan Africa.
Maybe the solution is to reduce Germany back down to one Mediterranean transport? This would help nerf the G1 attacks on Egypt and the Caucasus, but at the cost of making the G1 opener more boring / more similar to previous editions. If Germany builds a second (or even a third) Med transport on G1, then they could still potentially come up with a massive attack on Egypt on G2, before Britain has a chance to react, but at least that’s more expensive for Germany.
The only other thing I can think of is to just edit the turn order in the .xml file to be Germany -> Russia -> Japan -> UK -> US, and tell people to install my .xml file if they want to play the game, but I know that does tend to drive people away. We have enough files already.
Thoughts?
IMO, it might be simpler to edit the turn order.
If you know or Black Elk knows how to edit the turn order, it will provide two distinctive setups: yours and mine.
Anyway AA50 already use a similar turn order.
This is already a Redesigned stuff.
We may finish with two different workable setups or maybe there is some dead-end we didn’t see actually for one or the other…
The M3 Cruiser and TP brings a lot of unknowns in the foreseeing department.
IDK if the actual map with such short distance from:
WUS to Japan to India to South Africa or to Italy to France and UK to Karelia/Archangel SZ or to Eastern USA, all at 3 SZs from the next other is working or not. (The only exception is between WUS SZ and EUS SZ: 4 SZs.)
Maybe a kind of Risk massive building, then invade with 75%, built another 25% then make back and forth 3 SZs moves can break this setup.
We are just too amazed by the freedom M3 wonders gives us for the first time. But, when waking up from the dream, it might not be as hoped.
One reason I tried a different setup than 1942.2 OOB is also about this bad feeling that OOB setup doesn’t work.
I was going in the direction of only considering M3 for Global scale game.
And for good reason, since it was built around all M2 units while Global allowed M3 with NB anyway. 3 to 4 moves is only 125% increase compared to 2 to 3 SZs moves which is 150% increase.
I was diverting from the initial 1941 M2 adaptation project also because you seemed very enthusiastic about M3 and all the new stuffs.
Why not give it a chance after all?
Eventually, if nothing goes wrong there will be a single file with all the optional stuff, including optional setups and turn order.
