Siberian strategy

[simon33]

They only make it from a G3 DOW if Germany can be slowed down by a turn.

There’s an average of 7 hits round one if 6+ planes are included in the attack. Depending on the attack you’ve got to expect to lose 10 or so inf and a plane as Japan.

Normally, inf move south from Manchuria J1 so Amur is normally occupied J2 and onwards.

[siparo]

The correct answer is 0 on R1. If the Japanese player doesn’t threaten and leaves few defenders in Manchuria or Korea with no air within range, then you may consider stacking in Amur as a threat. Otherwise back up and play defense. Let him come in and give you the Mongolians. You should only invade under the right circumstances.

[Amalec]

The first stack will make it on R6. Technically, a 2 turn German delay assuming a G1/G2 declare but with the 11 INF 3 ART in Germany being involved in any attack on Moscow. Frankly, if you can’t keep the German’s out of Moscow for that long, regardless of the German declare, you need to seriously reconsider your game.

[simon33]

@eames57:

What are the pros and cons of marching 6 guys west across the steppe instead of stacking 18 in Amur on R2?

Pro: may help defend Moscow.
Con: Eastern force is far easier to take down.

[Private-Panic]

My preference is withdrawing to Moscow.

I don’t think I have yet lost Moscow before they get there, but with perhaps 20+ games of G40 under my belt there are plenty of lessons for me still to learn.

And quite often the Mongolia rule keeps Japan out of all but the three most easterly territories for quite a number of turns.

While those Amur units can slow down Japanese progress in China and/or India, it is easier for Germany to win this game than Japan. The defence of Moscow is much more crucial than those eastern territories. And if/when Moscow falls a saved Russian stack retreating to the Middle East can save the game for the Allies.

[eames57]

Certainly stacking all 18 in Amur on R1 is suicide, agreed.  But what about 6 and an AA? Leaving 6 in Amur to die would quickly get replenished by Mongolian troops.  Putting ten in there only leaves you with a stack of 14 to defend afterwards, but forces Japan to commit to the north some much needed ground troops.  The tradeoff is it opens Mongolia to Japan to blitz through, but it also opens it up for Russia to come help defend China.  I don’t know whose advantage that is.

Let me rephrase my original question.  Does anyone find that putting a small number of troops, like 4 or 6, on Amur on R1 puts any pressure on Japan and changes his opening gambit?

(It’s been a good discussion on the merits of bringing troops back to Moscow.  But if I see that Germany is going to attack on G1 or G2, I don’t bother; they won’t get there in time.  If Buryalia starts west on a G3 DOW, they can at least retake Moscow if Germany is left with only a couple ground troops there.  But on a G3 I’m really hoping I can stall Germany a turn to get them there in time to defend.)

[BirthOfIron]

I don’t see a benefit for leaving any troops in Amur.  That is right on Japan’s front door and it is easy for Japan to deal with them when it is convenient.  It is still suicide for the Russian troops - just suicide on a smaller scale.

I don’t see that it offers much benefit in terms of Russia being able to assist China either.  If Japan wants China, she will get it.  The job of China is to die as slowly as possible.  And Russia is under pressure from Germany so they typically don’t have the units to spare in assisting China.

[simon33]

Is the idea that the troops left there are bait? Otherwise, I can’t really see the why.

[GeneralHandGrenade]

I usually leave 6 behind just to provide a bit of a speed bump for Japan if they decide to go north. Not enough to pose a threat with all of the other 14 units heading back to Moscow.

[Black_Elk]

The game doesn’t give Zhukov anything to work with. Where are his tanks and artillery and aircraft?

In addition to the 15 infantry divisions, there were also like 1,500 tanks and 1,500 aircraft stationed there to keep the Japanese at bay, and these were all battle hardened Khalkhin Gol vets.

Just for point of reference the entire Japanese Empire was fielding what like 4000 aircraft at the time? 1000 and change for the Army, like 3000 and change for the Navy. And the Russians were consistently out producing them in the air year to year.

I know there is no pretense of relative unit numbers in A&A, but you’d think the Soviets would have at least 1 air unit in the Far East, to Japan’s 20+.

Maybe a single tank in the Far East to show why Stalin was willing to entrust dude with fate of the entire Soviet Union when the Germans came knocking.

Instead Japan just smokes Amur on this board, if the Soviet player looks to history as any kind of guide for how they should be playing. Oh well. Guess it’s bounce or die.
:-D

[taamvan]

Every time someone brings up realism in AxA i re read Khalkin Gol and how tin pressed tanks and 19th century japanese junk was supposed to take on a real modern combined arms force, over rough terrain, even a thrown together Soviet version transported into the wilderness and supported by cossack riders

japan fought a few skirmishes and gave up…and then 2 years later decided to attack the other future superpower on the water and islands…

zen like wisdom vs suicidal egotistical military junta?

not all tanks are created equal (except in AxA to keep things simple)

at least G41Oztea gives us a viable eastern force, but then the fantasy fun Axis advantage evaporates

[taamvan]

good points, SH

they did make an amazing account of their technological progress and bravery, but thats not enough and just like Hitler, they made sure they traded friends for enemies at a rapid pace until there were no friends and theyd made a (semi) unprovoked war every other power on the planet

once they’d shown the soviets how weak their power projection and logistics (and equipment) were, and lost a few battles, they made their situation worse than if they hadnt probed and provoked at all.  All those soviet units just went back west gradually, sometimes arriving off the TSR right in time to stop the nazis.

Maybe a standoff would have been better but the entire era is one of fatally agressive decisionmaking and self-destructive ambition

[General Veers]

At the very least the 64 IPC value of units in Siberia should be redistributed into mobile units that give the Russian player flexibility to return to Moscow or send some units to China sooner.

[Hunter Jones]

I usually do what GHG does, if the Japanese attack those six, you get six for the six you lost in the attack. Often by round 3 or 4 you have a general idea of what the Axis are doing. If its Crussia, then I send 6 to Moscow, and leave the other 6 behind. If China is in trouble, then those 12 enter China. Otherwise they go to Moscow along with the AAA guns. That’s my take on it.

[Hunter Jones]

That’s an interesting idea, I’ll try it out at my next game

[oysteilo]

If Germany buy men for Russia G1 I “rush” all 20 units back. If Germany buy navy I group them in buryatia with the option of moving them back to Amur on R2

Sometimes I also move the Burytia men (6) back to moscow anyway on R1

[taamvan]

good idea, oystello, to react.

If you want a real mobile force Russia East, try G41 by Oztea.

The answer to the OP’s question IMO? 1 guy.  Leave 1 so they cant take it without committing at least 2 infantry.

[eames57]

So the general consensus is that leaving up to 6 men in Amur doesn’t much affect Japan’s opening move, so it doesn’t really matter.  Leaving 7-10 might work as bait.  Leaving anything higher than that is just dumb.  How many you leave in Amur is merely a question of which options you want to keep open for round 2.  If you leave any, you’re closing the option of moving those guys west.  If you don’t leave any, you don’t have the option of attacking Manchuria or Korea, or at least putting pressure there to prevent Japanese troops from heading south.

For those of you that move everything west except a small speedbump, do you find that Japan feels free to move all his Manchurian and even Korean troops south?  Even on a Jdow1, is he able to sweep through China?  (I know someone is going to say that if Japan wants, there’s nothing you can do to prevent him from taking all of China easily, but that’s only if he prioritizes it.  By moving all Siberian troops west, is Japan often able to take China and put pressure on India and defend DEI?)
Also, in your games does American ever have the chance to take Korea?  If so, wouldn’t you want a few Ruskies to sit down on top of it?

I think I’m starting to lean toward leaving 8 guys on Amur round 1 as bait just to draw a lot of his guys up and away from the real fight.  Or to attack Manchuria round 2 just to kill straggling ground troops if the option is there.  It leaves enough guys to slow down mobile units blitzing through Siberia with a couple left over to go round Mongolia and protect the Chinese flank.  But then again I usually have much easier time defending Moscow in its final hour than I do containing Japan.

[Hunter Jones]

For those of you that move everything west except a small speedbump, do you find that Japan feels free to move all his Manchurian and even Korean troops south?  Even on a Jdow1, is he able to sweep through China?  (I know someone is going to say that if Japan wants, there’s nothing you can do to prevent him from taking all of China easily, but that’s only if he prioritizes it.  By moving all Siberian troops west, is Japan often able to take China and put pressure on India and defend DEI?)
Also, in your games does American ever have the chance to take Korea?  If so, wouldn’t you want a few Ruskies to sit down on top of it?

Usually, leaving six behind as a speed bump is enough for Japan to leave at least 6-7 of their own on the border. Even if a J1 DOW happens. That’s [Insert number that the Japanese leave] not attacking vital Allied Territories(India, Malaya, China, Etc.). Usually Korea is jumped on by the Russians, in my games(Late game). Those other 12 you move away is either going to support China or Moscow, or both. Its based mostly on what is happening during the game.

Leaving 7-10 might work as bait.  Leaving anything higher than that is just dumb.  How many you leave in Amur is merely a question of which options you want to keep open for round 2.  If you leave any, you’re closing the option of moving those guys west.  If you don’t leave any, you don’t have the option of attacking Manchuria or Korea, or at least putting pressure there to prevent Japanese troops from heading south.

going to try the 7-10 infantry left in Amur. You’re right, ANYTHING higher is dumb. What Russia wants to do on R2 is its own choice, with the exception of a G1 Barbarossa or it looks like the Axis are going for Crussia.

[Ichabod]

@ShadowHAwk:

If you give each country really realistic number of troops how would the axis even think of wining. Some things are changed for game balance as well as realism, russia wasnt going to attack japan because it didnt feel like it. Us would not go to war over phili or london it would stay in isolation unless japan or germany declared war or attacked them directly. And no sane axis player would ever attack the US, they would take the money island, phili, india, london, middle east, australia and then consider russia. After all was sorted they would maby attack the US.

I don’t agree with your opinion about what it would take for the US to join the allies in WW2. I believe the US would NOT have stayed out of the war over Philippines or London. At the time, the Philippines was a US territory with lots of US troops there. That’s self-explanatory. Hawaii was no different at the time. Regarding London, the US has a connection with the UK that’s deeper than a traditional ally. I think Germany invading and taking over England would have brought a cry across the US strongly advocating to liberate them. However, if Germany did pull that off, I’m not really sure that the US would have had what it would have taken to do that. The US Army had lots of growing pains when American troops really started fighting a lot in 1943. At that time troops and commanders were all very inexperienced.