Okay then. I would rather the Axis win, so…
San Francisco (ruleset for 1942.2 and Global)
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I’d say balance is easier to fix, provided the mechanics offer more entertaining gameplay.
For example, you could add a Red fighter as you mentioned. Or you could address the economic disparity more directly. You might give the Russians a Warbonds tech +1d6 to income each turn, and just say it represents lend lease. Might try something similar with UK if necessary.
I think the German economy was designed in such a way that it can still function reasonably well even if sustaining heavy damage from SBR. It’s hard to push Germany below 24 ipcs, so even if they’re getting fire bombed pretty savagely, they can still be dropping 8 inf a turn.
Russia by contrast has way fewer ipcs to start, and if Moscow is getting max damaged, they’re lucky to get just a handful of hitpoints per turn. To me this recommends some kind of income bonus for the Russians. The game doesn’t model Soviet industrial production expansion over the course of the war very well. In reality this increased by orders of magnitude, whereas in-game, after a certain point they are entirely reliant on the West to put units at the center. It’s kind of bizarre, and makes Axis strat bombing pretty overpowered. In the War Germany never rained down bombs on Moscow the way they can in game, certainly Japan never did so. But the mechanics being what they are it’s kind of hard to avoid in A&A. Given the regularity with which this kind of gameplay occurs, I think the simplest solution would be to give them a little more money to offset the fact that they are likely to be bombed from both sides.
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I agree with both u guys concerning Russia and getting some kind of piece or money.
Do you feel more incline to give Russia and UK a fig if need be. As far as the 1D6 roll do you think that it may be to much of a swing over turns ? What if you just gave Russia the 1D6 die roll ? 1 fig = 10 May lose in turns 2 - 4. 1D6 ave roll per turn 3.1. T2 = 6.2 T3 = 9.3 T4 = 12.4. but if Russia loses 2 figs it be best for the 1D6 odds to get the money back. Roll a 5 for 4 turns get your money back for the lost. 2 figs = 20 loss 4D6 rolls of 5 = 20 gain back.Also is this to strong for Russia once Allie troops start getting into Russia ?
This is going to be tested even more if you go one way or the other. Is the UK and German bombing each other even ? Can Germany take Moscow with UK US bombing ? Is a Fig enough for Russia ? To me it seems like Russia needs 4 figs in game.
I can see this 1D6 spicing up the game for Russia some what. This may also be another mod to a rule where no allies troops in Russia at any time, but thats another topic.
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@SS:
I agree with both u guys concerning Russia and getting some kind of piece or money.
Do you feel more incline to give Russia and UK a fig if need be. As far as the 1D6 roll do you think that it may be to much of a swing over turns ? What if you just gave Russia the 1D6 die roll ? 1 fig = 10 May lose in turns 2 - 4. 1D6 ave roll per turn 3.1. T2 = 6.2 T3 = 9.3 T4 = 12.4. but if Russia loses 2 figs it be best for the 1D6 odds to get the money back. Roll a 5 for 4 turns get your money back for the lost. 2 figs = 20 loss 4D6 rolls of 5 = 20 gain back.Also is this to strong for Russia once Allie troops start getting into Russia ?
This is going to be tested even more if you go one way or the other. Is the UK and German bombing each other even ? Can Germany take Moscow with UK US bombing ? Is a Fig enough for Russia ? To me it seems like Russia needs 4 figs in game.
I can see this 1D6 spicing up the game for Russia some what. This may also be another mod to a rule where no allies troops in Russia at any time, but thats another topic.
May lose in turns 2 - 4.
I don’t understand this sentence.
Therefore, I’m not sure to follow numbers…But I get the principle gives enough money so Russia can buy a Fg.
In my 1942.2 SFexperience, I changed 1 Fg for 1 TcB.
I’m more inclined now, to add 1 TcB (kind of Black Elk bomber bid).
Then Russia can buy another Fg and get 3 Fgs interceptor.Actually, I like the 1D6 Lend-lease. If not enough, giving +1 per round can be quite interesting.
At the end of first round, Russia can collect 1D6+1 IPCs from Lend lease and increase Soviet industrial expansion.
At the end of round R5, it would be 1D6+5 IPCs.
Increasing over time.So, three direction: 1-Fighter bid on set-up, 2-Lend-lease, 3-Progressive Lend-lease to Russia.
And a combination of 1 with 2 or 3, makes for 5 cases to balance the Axis StBombers Center Crush. (ABCC)
Actually, from my little experience on balance POV, I saw no compelling reason to create an impassable Sinkiang and Szechwuan.
But this can be our last option to delay Japan Center Crush. (JCC) -
May lose in 2 - 4 turns
Means Russia may lose a fig or 2 in those turns. So the 1D6 roll can make it up if they roll good dies. If you are starting to discuss the 3 bid options ( or you mean 3 options to chose from ) then I’m out of that discussion. I don’t believe in bids. Just change the setup. IMO
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@SS:
May lose in 2 - 4 turns
Means Russia may lose a fig or 2 in those turns. So the 1D6 roll can make it up if they roll good dies. If you are starting to discuss the 3 bid options ( or you mean 3 options to chose from ) then I’m out of that discussion. I don’t believe in bids. Just change the setup. IMO
By bid I meant the set-up change.
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@Baron:
On C5 bombers, interactions with Fgs is good and casualty selection pretty accurate to depict WWII SBR.
The issue remains about what to do with Russia which is pretty vulnerable if it don’t get allies planes in Moscow. In my game, I built 1 Fg on R1, and remains 2 Russian Fgs and 1 US Fg to repel bombers.
Is bombing dmg too hard on Russia?
Does it need a 10 IPCs Fg bid, instead of a bomber bid, as Black Elk, suggest normally to help things early game?Because Japan and Germany bombers make a hard time to russia if rolls stay high on damage.
Virtually making building unit impossible with too meager resources.the Balanced Mod is pretty close, if not slightly pro-allied. But big improvement over G40 OOB, where bids are now easily 20+.
I’d say the best in terms of “balance” was the oldie: Pacific 2001. Take out the India crush, and it really was a tight, tight game.
1942 2nd is way pro-Axis IMO. Just start strat bombing Russia and lights out!
It seems that Axis Bombing Center Crush is not an exclusive issue from C5 Bomber.
Karl7 saw it in 1942.2 OOB game.
Our play-tests may just emphasized what was already there.It seems to be a deeper issue, which eventually may need to be address properly.
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Oh its definitely not exclusive to C5. In my experience it is often Japan that does the most consistent SBR damage OOB. Germany tends to preserve their combat bombers for dark skies fleet nuking and ground combats or the final battle for Moscow (rather than risking them to early AAAfire), whereas Japan will start buying StratB’s out of Tokyo pretty early on and send towards the center to raid. Once Yunnan is secure, as it almost always is on J2, Japan can raid Moscow from this territory or Kwang and land safely. They can do the same out of Karelia, once G stacks it, where Japanese bombers can also be used for Atlantic fleet coverage. Annoyingly, Japan can also use such bombers to raid London in a similar fashion once Moscow is knocked out.
Closing Western China would probably help with this, but wouldn’t address the underlying issue, just delay it for a few rounds.
The Russian economy is pretty weak, so it’s hard for them to stand up if they’re forced to spend half their cash each turn on repairs. This problem comes up all over the place, with the Russians too broke to do anything but turtle.
One consequence of making China a pre-industrial nation, is that it offers no good targets for Japanese SBR. This would probably be the most appropriate use of Japanese StratB’s, but since there is no need OOB, they can just fly on to India/Moscow.
Der Kuenstler has rules in his hybrid map that allow strat bombers to bomb any tile with an ipc value. I think the rule is pretty interesting, though probably impractical for tripleA, since it would likely require invisible factories everywhere.
I think the C5 bombers will probably be optimal for the basic mechanics, whether the economies will scale appropriately under such conditions is another question. Seems that UK and Russia are more likely to be bombed, and both of those Nations often have a pretty low economy in the Mid-Game. Both received aid from the US though, so I think you could interpret a warbonds type income bonus for 1942.2 and interpret it as lend lease, without really needing to come up with specific lend lease rules. In G40, which has Objectives as part of the standard game, it is easier to introduce more money if needed.
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Oh its definitely not exclusive to C5. In my experience it is often Japan that does the most consistent SBR damage OOB. Germany tends to preserve their combat bombers for dark skies fleet nuking and ground combats or the final battle for Moscow (rather than risking them to early AAAfire), whereas Japan will start buying StratB’s out of Tokyo pretty early on and send towards the center to raid. Once Yunnan is secure, as it almost always is on J2, Japan can raid Moscow from this territory or Kwang and land safely. They can do the same out of Karelia, once G stacks it, where Japanese bombers can also be used for Atlantic fleet coverage. Annoyingly, Japan can also use such bombers to raid London in a similar fashion once Moscow is knocked out.
Closing Western China would probably help with this, but wouldn’t address the underlying issue, just delay it for a few rounds.
The Russian economy is pretty weak, so it’s hard for them to stand up if they’re forced to spend half their cash each turn on repairs. This problem comes up all over the place, with the Russians too broke to do anything but turtle.
One consequence of making China a pre-industrial nation, is that it offers no good targets for Japanese SBR. This would probably be the most appropriate use of Japanese StratB’s, but since there is no need OOB, they can just fly on to India/Moscow.
Der Kuenstler has rules in his hybrid map that allow strat bombers to bomb any tile with an ipc value. I think the rule is pretty interesting, though probably impractical for tripleA, since it would likely require invisible factories everywhere.
I think the C5 bombers will probably be optimal for the basic mechanics, whether the economies will scale appropriately under such conditions is another question. Seems that UK and Russia are more likely to be bombed, and both of those Nations often have a pretty low economy in the Mid-Game. Both received aid from the US though, so I think you could interpret a warbonds type income bonus for 1942.2 and interpret it as lend lease, without really needing to come up with specific lend lease rules. In G40, which has Objectives as part of the standard game, it is easier to introduce more money if needed.
Warbond is a Tech, right?
So, it only requires to activate this Tech for Russia and UK only via Edit mode, right?For play-testing progressive bonus for Russia, it is also possible to throw 1 machine dice and add PUs via Edit Mode upon collecting income phase.
So, it was the case with StBs at 12 IPCs doing D6 damage. The greater the case for C5 doing D6 damage.
It is pretty difficult for Russia to build 10 IPCs Fg (or TcB), Infantry or Artillery are much more needed.For me, it seems another reason to not give A1 to StratBomber, having around 6 bombers attacking per game round (3 G + 3 J or 2G + 4 J) makes for an increase probability to shot down 1 Fg.
At least, with A0, there is only escorting Fg (or TcB) which can shot Fg interceptor down.
It happens during one play-test (in which there was no allies Fg in Moscow), Germany and Japan were able to provide 2 escorts each on a different SBR.Giving one additional Fg seems to help, but we must consider it is part of a sound allies strat to send a few Fg to Moscow.
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I think you can add a progressive bid before you start the game. Pretty sure anyway
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@Baron:
You found an interesting concept.
And it can be adjustable according to playtests.
For example, it may remains D6 for every power.
D6 to all four but Russia which can received:
+1 per round cumulative figuring is increasing rate of production.Also, as a side note, if we find that bombing is too much damage, we can give to all, or just Russia, and/or Germany Industrial Tech. That way, it cost .5 per point of damage.
It is another way to circumvent bomber issue.
Russian much increase wartime production can be simulated that way. -
CHINA RULES
for 1942.2Possible bid alternative
Western China is now closed for the purposes of movement. The border between Russian and Chinese starting territories is considered impassable. Tibetan Plateau, Taklamakan Desert etc.
3 Soviet infantry units and 1 artillery piece are added to Sinkiang. These represent the Communist forces of the Second United Front under Mao.
Here the CCP Reds are given a total power of 6 on attack/8 on defense 4 HP, TUV 13, to compliment and sustain the US supported Nationalist Chinese.
The KMT under Chiang technically has a total starting power of 9 on attack/16 on defense, 7 HP, TUV 28, but because of the OOB turn order this is likely reduced to just 5 on attack/8 on defense, 3 HP, TUV 16 by the end of J1! So the added strength of the CCP is meant to prop up this beleaguered Nationalist force for a stronger united defense. The US supported KMT can eventually be reinforced via a US factory purchase, or with Western units from Burma or elsewhere. But in early rounds it is the extra force of Red units that helps maintain China as an active theater of war.
Under the OOB turn order at least China has a way to survive the second round, and perhaps into the 3rd round or longer.
Under American Zero turn conditions, the Chinese position would be much stronger. But reinforcements in this region would be harder to come by with Western China closed, so this may balance rather well even under A0 conditions.
In either case the Chinese theater of War should at least remain active for longer, presenting Japan with a more realistic challenge to secure the mainland.
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@Baron:
@Baron:
You found an interesting concept.
And it can be adjustable according to playtests.
For example, it may remains D6 for every power.
D6 to all four but Russia which can received:
+1 per round cumulative figuring is increasing rate of production.Also, as a side note, if we find that bombing is too much damage, we can give to all, or just Russia, and/or Germany Industrial Tech. That way, it cost .5 per point of damage.
It is another way to circumvent bomber issue.
Russian much increase wartime production can be simulated that way.Do you think this D6 bonus would be replaced by VCs collecting phase end of round of play?
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Well I’m still not sure how simple it is to implement a group phase like the warchest concept I mentioned.
Might be advisable to keep regular war bonds in the back pocket. And the +5 for capturing an enemy VC as outlined in the master thread would be good to have as a toggle. Since at least we know both of those mechanics work in tripleA.
But yeah I think the warchest VC concept has promise, if it can work in 1942.2, I’m pretty sure it will work even better in Global.
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