Best of luck with your testing! You will find though that the online matches, while considerably less fun than a physical board with miniatures, is far easier to find strengths and weaknesses since it is so trivial to use the battle calculator for every move.
@Arthur:
The balance mod has several extra Allied objectives so they end up getting a bit more money during the game. I think that is better than the other option of having extra units to start the game.
Problem is that it just makes the timer for the axis even smaller and less strats viable for the axis.
Germany is now forced into R3 with full force anything suboptimal and you lose the game, 1 round delay for any reason and axis have lost.
But since the majority likes that type of game nobody bothers thinking of alternatives. And the strategies will always be the same for the axis which force the allies into the same moves as well making every game only different because of how the dice fall.Bids for russia make the game more balanced and allow the axis to do something different strategy wise.
Correct. That is the limitation of Balance Mod. However, I think you are overstating the case in the part that the allied responses are scripted. I still hold out that there is a suitable allied response to the G6 Moscow crush strategy.
I guess we’ll probably see if I find it by the end of the year.
I still think though that some allied moves are excessively punished in BM, mainly the Russian DOW on Japan.
@Arthur:
Best of luck with your testing! You will find though that the online matches, while considerably less fun than a physical board with miniatures, is far easier to find strengths and weaknesses since it is so trivial to use the battle calculator for every move.
Online is much faster as well. I’ve been tempted to play the turn on the computer and mimic the movements on the board to plan purchases and combat moves.
Simon: The Allies can generally stop or make it painful to do a G6 Moscow crush since Russia is getting a bit more income. That little bit makes a big difference. Here is my general gameplan when it looks like Germany is going all-out to hit Moscow:
Try to get a few German Planes with UK scrambles on G1 if possible.
Get Persia on UK1, build factory there on UK2 if possible. Build a few faster movers on UK3 and fighters on UK4 and 5.
Get as many UK fighters to Moscow on UK5
Get the six Russians in Siberia back on R6 (makes it tough to do a G7).
Don’t be afraid to abandon Moscow around R7 or R8. In BM, it is possible for the Allies to still push the Axis out of the oil fields because the Americans might be getting massive bonuses by US8.
I feel sorry for Allied players in a no-bid, no BM game since the German juggernaut is virtually impossible to stop.
@Arthur:
Simon: The Allies can generally stop or make it painful to do a G6 Moscow crush since Russia is getting a bit more income. That little bit makes a big difference. Here is my general gameplan when it looks like Germany is going all-out to hit Moscow:
Try to get a few German Planes with UK scrambles on G1 if possible.
Get Persia on UK1, build factory there on UK2 if possible. Build a few faster movers on UK3 and fighters on UK4 and 5.
Get as many UK fighters to Moscow on UK5
Get the six Russians in Siberia back on R6 (makes it tough to do a G7).
Don’t be afraid to abandon Moscow around R7 or R8. In BM, it is possible for the Allies to still push the Axis out of the oil fields because the Americans might be getting massive bonuses by US8.
I feel sorry for Allied players in a no-bid, no BM game since the German juggernaut is virtually impossible to stop.
Hmm, you have to pre-empt the Moscow crush for point one but I have taken to nearly always scrambling G1 now for the reasons you outline.
On point two - is it really worth bypassing the Ethiopian crush to get the Persian factory one turn sooner?
Because of my recent game I came to several changes to the Afrika Korps strategy. The overall idea and especially the Japanese battle plan remains the same though.
The German Afrika Fleet (1 Aircraft Carrier with 1 Fighter and 1 Tactical, 1 Cruiser, 1 Battleship) sent into the Mediterranean is too fragile in the Atlantic and the UK will be able to take it down in many scenarios, especially when Gibraltar is fortified in UK1. Attacking that fleet is also what the UK player did in my case, and with luck the two Transports survived. Those two did rocked the game, as German Transports in the Mediterranean with some troops are amazing, as they can reach Egypt, the Middle East or even South Africa very fast.
Your goal is to win the game by capturing Moscow, but in order to do this I prefer to take Egypt first, instead of last. As discussed a lot before, this is to give the Axis a lot of early $ and to prevent a late-game stalemate. However Russia is able to get some additional time and troops (1-2 turns) by first focusing on Africa and the Middle East. Especially the Romanian border was weak as Germany and needed to sent a lot of counter-attacks south.
Major Industrial Complex in Romania
By building a major IC in Romania on G1 you make a major strategic investment and adjustment to Germany logistics. As seen on the forum this has been used before and views are mixed, but it is especially looked at as all Russia focused. I think it can provide so much more by using it for Egypt/Africa early game and afterwards against Russia. It actually works really well with the Afrika Korps strategy as you already intend to crush the neutrals such as Turkey giving you access to the Mediterranean.
G1: Build Major IC in Romania
G2: Build Mediterranean Fleet: 1 Aircraft Carrier, 1 Battleship, 4 Transports in Black Sea
G3: Build Baltic Fleet: 1 Aircraft Carrier, 1 Destroyer, 3 Transports in Baltic Sea
G4: Start producing lots of troops!
You make three major strategic logistical investments with Germany in its first three turns. After these builds you have excellent movement around Northern Russia, Southern Russia, Middle East and Africa. These builds allows you to get Infantry to places you want fast, both offense and defense.
I experienced again how easy it is to defend Europe against the Western Allies if they try to go through the north to Scandinavia instead of the Mediterranean. Your Industrial output as Germany and Italy is already excellent there and especially with a Baltic Fleet you are able to retake Norway, Leningrad or Denmark every turn.
Instead of the smallish initial German fleet with 2-3 transports that can arrive in Egypt in G4, you are now able to send a much more dedicated fleet to Egypt in G3, a whole turn earlier. That fleet can afterwards return to the Black Sea for Southern Russia, send to take Persia/Iraq or to South Africa.
This allows you to take Egypt (Black Sea Fleet) and Caucasus (Afrika Korps) in G3 and takes away a lot of risk. You still do a G3 on Russia as is usual only now you have full control of the Black Sea and sending 10 troops a turn from Romania into Russia.
The main problem with building a Romanian Major is the lack of threat to the UK. However I do think that the strategic advantages it provides for Germany against both Afrika, Middle East and Southern Russian outweighs the lack of threat.
Then as second I pondered some more about the United Kingdom, as it is my main opponent in the Mediterranean, Africa and the Middle East and also powerful. So powerful that in most games, they remain in control and cripple Italy. This has led me and many others come to the point that we agree that Germany needs to help Italy in order to succeed around the Mediterranean. In order to do this we need to understand all optimal UK possibilities in the Mediterranean and create a counter-strategy for each of them.
There was a lot of discussion inside this topic already, however I did missed the strongest UK approach (although in my opinion). The four optimal UK1 options are:
1. Taranto
2. Gibraltar
3. Red Sea
4. Boxing
1. Taranto
The known classic and used in most games. UK attacks SZ97 and SZ96 taking out 2/3 of the Italian fleet. Very effective in crippling Italy and because of this move people have become hopeless what to do with Italy outside Europe or Russia. It does leave the UK fleet hurt and thus mostly finished by the Luftwaffe in G2 leaving the Mediterranean open.
2. Gibraltar
The fleet unites at SZ92 while Gibraltar is reinforced or upgraded with an Airbase and some fighters. Have not played against or myself. Idea is to create a fortress unable for Italy to take or without very high Luftwaffe losses.
3. Red Sea
The fleet unites at SZ81 and reinforces Egypt. In UK2 they return to the Mediterranean in full force with additional planes from India and London to kick Italy ass. Possibility of getting locked out of the Mediterranean though.
4. Boxing
The fleet provides an encirclement of the Italian fleet while focusing on destroying Italian troops in Africa as soon as possible. The boxing in done in such order that if Italy decides to attack any of the sea zones it will get destroyed by the UK the next turn. Because of the boxing Italy is not able to reach either Gibraltar or Egypt.
I will expand the four strategies the following days to become more complete.
If you build 1 AC + destr + sub round 1 and merge fleet the UK will have a hard time taking that fleet down.
Most of them do taranto so the med fleet from them is gone.
Gibraltar needs to be taken but you got 1 transport and 2 bombardments should be sufficient against most things there. Italy can take it for you if you fail.Buying the stuff north saves you a lot of cash that you can use to shore up your defenses against russia, but you need to get to leninggrad fast to prevent russia from attacking into norway.
It might be sufficient to survive the Atlantic and even take Gibraltar but is too weak to take Egypt or any fortified position.
Also it is a one shot, if it gets destroyed somehow by the UK before it reached Egypt you lost the initiative and possibly even the option to get German fleet again to the Med. After G4 the USA will reign the Atlantic if it wants to (with minimal investment).
Romania provides a direct access to the Med and Black Sea, in the beginning as described but also late game. If USA decides to go through the Med you could build 10 Submarines in a turn as Germany.
Yes you delay troops against Russia, but you have your defense already in place and can start focusing 100% on troops and Russia after G3. Also this delay is countered by the fact you can reach Caucasus, Ukraine and Leningrad in a single turn because of your transports.
I do worry about 3 full rounds of non-land troop spending for Germany. I personally have never seen a big Med fleet for the Axis result in anything other than eventual defeat. In a traditional Sea Lion plan, Germany only has to spend two rounds on naval forces and some of the spending is recouped by captured London money. Depending on how many planes are lost during the first three rounds, making attacks into Russia can be either slow or impossible. With this modified plan you have so much less resources to go against Russia.
Germany: 63 units
33 infantry
4 mech
6 artillery
9 tanks
11 planes
Russia: 35 units + ~ 35 more units purchased in first 3 rounds = 70 units
25 infantry
2 mech
3 artillery
2 tanks
3 planes
~111 PUs to spend in first 3 rounds
With so much spending in the Med, you are going to run into a near stalemate with Russia. Meanwhile the Pacific theater could be a challenge if you did a J1 attack against Russia. UK/ANZAC declare war on the first round for the extra income so you will be facing a big stack of mainland units + planes.
As other people have suggested, perhaps you capture S. France on G1 and use that factory for a limited fleet. Maybe building 3 transports there on G2 will give you sufficient ground troops to compliment a big air force for an Egypt G3 or G4 attack.
G1: Build 2 bombers and a sub
G2: Build 3 transports and an air base in S. France if necessary for protection, build more planes
G3: Transport troops to join stack of Italians in Alexandria or attack Egypt if modestly defended and no UK ship block
G4: Conquer Egypt with 6 land units + 20-ish planes.
That would be only 3 rounds of German spending and you would have a bunch more planes to use against Russia.
Thanks again for strategic comments!
Yes using the Southern France factory sounds good and was also my initial plan before this whole Afrika Korps idea came to mind. However you both underestimate the UK this time. Only in the case of Taranto it loses its fleet in the Med, in all other cases and even with Taranto they have significant RAF presence or naval units coming from India in the Med before G3.
As you can only produce 3 units you will need more than 1 turn to build your fleet there, and in between it can be destroyed by a determined or Gibraltar fortress focused UK player. Same for those German transports, they need protection or are victims of the RAF.
The fleet build G1 is indeed nice and let you possibly join up in the Med with southern france transports. The point is however that if the UK wants it, it can destroy it, and if you lose it, thats a lot of waisted IPC. You do not want these sort of gambits as Axis as you need minimal losses in your first turns and maximum initiative.
About IPC spent in the Black Sea/Med, thats just 64. Without Battleship only 44. Romania is something I would consider as a big investment against Russia also. You could consider to not build a Battleship in the Black Sea or just a Destroyer for Baltic Sea in G3.
However the moment you start war with Russia in G3 you are making 70+ already and only rising, within a very few turns you overpower Russia.
The only way Germany will be making 70+ ipc’s by turn 3 or 4 without attacking Russian is if the Allied players are being run by people who have never played before. I find it highly unlikely that Germany can realistically be making 70= ipc’s a turn by than.
The only way Germany will be making 70+ ipc’s by turn 3 or 4 without attacking Russian is if the Allied players are being run by people who have never played before. I find it highly unlikely that Germany can realistically be making 70= ipc’s a turn by than.
Oke to be exact: 69 IPC
Egypt NO
Caucasus NO
Swedish NO
NO bonus: 15
All of France, Sweden, Finland, Bulgaria, Greece, Caucasus, Egypt, Eastern Poland, Baltic States, Karelia: 24
So 71 if you take Yugoslavia, but I prefer to strafe it and give it to Italy. Those mentioned territories does not sound so difficult in G3 right?
Shadowhawk maybe I misunderstand you. Where remains the other UK pieces after Taranto? Do you assume Italy scrambles at Taranto to kill off a lof of UK airforce?
It really depends what the UK attacks with and also what is in range to attack your fleet.
There is little UK fleet left after taranto and german attack on the fleet there. Sure it costs a few planes but after that there is no med fleet left at all.
Germany will have 1 carrier + planes, 1 BB 1 CA 1 destr 1 sub and 1 transport at gibraltar round 2.
UK will have 1 or 2 destroyers in the atlantic and some planes i dont think they will try to do this suicide run really.Round 3 the fleet is nicely in the med and you can build e xtra forces from south france to make it bigger or add 3 transports for a 4 transport attack on egypt round 4.
I agree with what you are saying. Do you think that with the G1 fleet build (ac, destr, ss) you will already be able to take Egypt in G4 if the UK did Taranto? What if the UK does not do Taranto? That will turn the discussion into two optimals.
1. Germany takes Southern France and build fleet in G1 in SZ112 to send to Gibraltar in G2
2. Use Afrika Korps strategy by sending initial armour + mech through Turkey and make Med fleet in Black Sea
I am promoting and drafting the second option. If the first case is most optimal in most cases the Afrika Korps strategy is more of a gambit instead of innovative strategy.
I am curious if it would just be better to skip the Navy build completely if you are going to do a Neutral Crush anyway. It slows you down a round or two by driving fast movers instead of transporting them. Nevertheless you save so much by skipping out on the ship building. You had approximately 120 PUs of ships in your recent Med + Baltic plan. For that price you could have ten extra bombers or 25 extra fast movers. Sure you can reach more places faster with the ships, but will you have enough forces to withstand a determined Russian counterattack combined with Americans pushing into Western Europe?
I have been following along with this discussion since the beginning. I ran a number of scenarios over the weekend in regards to building a German fleet in the Med. It looked to me like it was a really good idea but for the life of me I couldn’t figure out why you needed to do a neutral crush. This game isn’t a race to see how fast you can achieve every one of your objectives by turn 4 or turn whatever for that matter. It is much better to set your ultimate goal and try to achieve it step by step with alternate moves that you can do each step of the way.
First you ask yourself " Why am I going to Africa?" For me the answer is;
1. The money. Take the money for yourself and take it away from the UK.
2. Give Italy a role in the game besides being the can opener for one turn and a turtle for the rest.
3. Draw America’s focus away from the Pacific and Europe.
All I need to do to accomplish those things is get a medium sized German fleet to the Med. I don’t need to crush any neutrals or have a solid plan for defeating Russia. The Russians can wait until the 4th turn when my focus changes to them and there are German troops already in Africa. Even if the UK attacks my fleet when it gets there I have already accomplished a lot. First I have successfully faked a Sealion attack by purchasing only boats on the first turn. Second I have provided Italy with 2 of their NO’s by taking out Gibraltar (Italy takes Greece) and North Africa (with their help) upon arrival. And last I have killed virtually every single boat and plane the UK have when they attacked me. This whole time Italy has saved all of their income and now can build a navy which put them in the game. UK will have a difficult time taking Africa with any speed (if at all) due to a strengthened Italy and and small German force that made it there. They will have an even more difficult time if I add in a heavy duty bombing campaign against London since my planes won’t be busy for the next couple of turns anyway.
Germany doesn’t have to mortgage the farm to do all of this. Yes it will take longer to reach Moscow but like I said it isn’t a race. I don’t believe that the UK can take out my German fleet and with the IC on Southern France that I take on turn 2 I can add to the fleet before the Americans get there. If they don’t then I will add more ground units to Africa and start making my way to the Middle East. When the Americans do come across the Atlantic if I play my cards right that navy plus the Luftwaffe can take out the American fleet and set them back 3-4 turns until they are ready to sail again. That gives me all day to walk to Moscow.
Having the fleet instead of a ton of bombers gives you more options too. After the British are defeated you can send the fleet back up north to assault London if the Americans go against Japan instead of Europe. You can build up your bomber fleet slowly and have both if you want. Every step along the way take what your opponent gives you instead of planning every single move and purchase for the next 4 turns. Did I mention it isn’t a race?
A Romanian IC is a massive negative value adder for going into Russia.
Whether it adds positive value for the neutral crush is unclear. Why is it being done again and why does it need to be major? Minor can pump out 3art/turn and bring in Mechs from Germany + planes to help. Minor can also pump out ships - 1TT 1CV 1DD with planes flown on is a force which can fight depending on enemy strength.
I have been following along with this discussion since the beginning. I ran a number of scenarios over the weekend in regards to building a German fleet in the Med. It looked to me like it was a really good idea but for the life of me I couldn’t figure out why you needed to do a neutral crush. This game isn’t a race to see how fast you can achieve every one of your objectives by turn 4 or turn whatever for that matter. It is much better to set your ultimate goal and try to achieve it step by step with alternate moves that you can do each step of the way.
First you ask yourself " Why am I going to Africa?" For me the answer is;
1. The money. Take the money for yourself and take it away from the UK.
2. Give Italy a role in the game besides being the can opener for one turn and a turtle for the rest.
3. Draw America’s focus away from the Pacific and Europe.All I need to do to accomplish those things is get a medium sized German fleet to the Med. I don’t need to crush any neutrals or have a solid plan for defeating Russia. The Russians can wait until the 4th turn when my focus changes to them and there are German troops already in Africa. Even if the UK attacks my fleet when it gets there I have already accomplished a lot. First I have successfully faked a Sealion attack by purchasing only boats on the first turn. Second I have provided Italy with 2 of their NO’s by taking out Gibraltar (Italy takes Greece) and North Africa (with their help) upon arrival. And last I have killed virtually every single boat and plane the UK have when they attacked me. This whole time Italy has saved all of their income and now can build a navy which put them in the game. UK will have a difficult time taking Africa with any speed (if at all) due to a strengthened Italy and and small German force that made it there. They will have an even more difficult time if I add in a heavy duty bombing campaign against London since my planes won’t be busy for the next couple of turns anyway.
Germany doesn’t have to mortgage the farm to do all of this. Yes it will take longer to reach Moscow but like I said it isn’t a race. I don’t believe that the UK can take out my German fleet and with the IC on Southern France that I take on turn 2 I can add to the fleet before the Americans get there. If they don’t then I will add more ground units to Africa and start making my way to the Middle East. When the Americans do come across the Atlantic if I play my cards right that navy plus the Luftwaffe can take out the American fleet and set them back 3-4 turns until they are ready to sail again. That gives me all day to walk to Moscow.
Having the fleet instead of a ton of bombers gives you more options too. After the British are defeated you can send the fleet back up north to assault London if the Americans go against Japan instead of Europe. You can build up your bomber fleet slowly and have both if you want. Every step along the way take what your opponent gives you instead of planning every single move and purchase for the next 4 turns. Did I mention it isn’t a race?
A very good post and observation which I had to ponder about several times. As you know this was also the plan (with neutral crush) and in my last game I decided in G2 to not do neutral crush and push directly into Russia because of its bad positioned defense. I still took Egypt, Middle East and Southern Russia which won me the game because of the $.
But I also experienced some risks. The BB did not survived until G2 and the UK did not do Taranto. They nearly killed that medium sized fleet (without BB and destr). Yes it attracts UK attention to German fleet instead of Italy and gets two NO in I2 so a very good move.
But I reached Egypt in G4 because Italy was able to take it (not well defended by UK player), Iraq in G5, Caucasus in G7 and Stalingrad in G8.
My point being, you are too slow. Africa provides lots of points (36) but so does the Middle East (16) and Southern Russia (18) a total of 70 IPC extra.
As the Axis I would argue it is a race, a race of economic domination. If you fail that race the Allies win, if you win that race the Axis win, its that simple.
That is exactly what the Neutral Crush provides: invasion of Caucaus + Middle East through Turkey in G3. While you do help Italy a lot by going from SZ112 to Gibraltar to Egypt the UK can intervene, dice can be bad. Supporting this extremely early take over of Africa, Middle East and Southern Russia can only be done through a neutral crush and a Romanian Major IC + Black Sea fleet + Afrika Korps taking Caucasus is able to facilitate that.
Therefore you are much earlier able to gain those 70 IPC for the Axis within 2-3 turns in G3-G5 and make the economic swing leading to Axis victory.
Yes you support Italy a little les in this way, but provided you let them take the Middle East they will be perfectly able to become a Major Axis player with 30-50 IPC. In return there is little the UK can do to stop you. Building IC in Egypt and Iran? Yes please! There are little UK forces in the Middle East so early and a combined German-Italian assault in turn 3 is also something I don’t see being stopped, especially after Taranto.
Turkey begins the game as a neutral territory, so neither side may move through the Turkish Straits until Turkey is captured.
When you talked about building in the black sea and moving into the med and then back to the black sea, I’m guessing you have already attacked Turkey? which round do you attack turkey?
I still think all of this spending on ships and the IC is not the best plan…but it sounds fun.
I think a minor IC is plenty in Romania.
G1, Build minor IC in Romania, 3 artillery and 2 infantry in Germany.
G2, Build 1 transports, 1 carrier, 1 destroyer march those 5 ground units to Hungary…next turn Romania. Build as many straight leg infantry and artillery on Germany to fill those transports in G4 and maybe 1 fighter.
G3, Attack Caucasus with 2 grounds and as many air as required, build 2 more transports. Build 4 leg infantry/2 art on Germany to go to Romania on G5. Another words…create a congo line of slow movers who are going to Caucasus which then go whichever direction makes the most sense.
G4 Rinse and Repeat, except at this point you should be building more mechs and tanks on the main German Major IC to catch up with the slow walkers going the traditional paths into Russia and attacking with 6 infantry this turn. You still build 3 infantry/art on Romania, and 3 infantry/art on Germany that march towards Romania.
Turkey begins the game as a neutral territory, so neither side may move through the Turkish Straits until Turkey is captured.
When you talked about building in the black sea and moving into the med and then back to the black sea, I’m guessing you have already attacked Turkey? which round do you attack turkey?
Italy Turn 2. This allows you to pass German armout and fleet to the NO places (Egypt and Caucasus) you want in G3.
In my games when playing the Axis, Italy doesn’t have enough power to attack Turkey on I2. Often Italy wasn’t able to take over Greece on Turn1. Especially if there is a substantial amount of UK Navy in the way after Taranto. Italy has to use all of its planes to hit the UK fleet to kill it in order to not get convoyed. That means no planes for Greece and only 2 extra units to land at Greece that sometimes don’t win.
I guess Italy could do a strafe on Turkey to take out some units, then retreat (if they had conquered Greece on I1, which doesn’t happen often). This will allow a Black Sea Fleet to get out.
Do you give the Bulgarian infantry to Italy? I think this could really hurt Germany maintain and stabilize the Russian front once that war begin.
If the UK doesn’t do Taranto, then Italy has enough to work to where there’s no need to violate the strict neutrals and flip them pro-allies neutral.
