Fixing Sea / Air Unit Issues (Strategic Bombers and Cruisers)

  • '17 '16

    @Baron:

    This is a lot of changes.
    I hope your fellow players  are pretty much open toward house rules and not too much competitive.
    A lot of your ideas have no small impact over balance.

    From my own experience, even a few tweaks on units with a single paper sheet to summarize all combat values and abilities takes 15 minutes to review and explains changes and selecting which ones are in and which are out.
    Explaining all your changes will take longer.
    I suggest you have small talk the days before with your friends to help everyone  being on same page and have time to debate which house rules will be try.
    Otherwise, a time cunsumming debate could take place instead of playing the game right on while everyone is sat there around the table…
    Have fun. Part of the fun is also talking about introducing HR.

    If you follow this link, you get all my special rules and 2 word files which describes units and starting set-up to balance for changes made.
    Once download, you can rewrite all what you need to adjust for your own HRs, including set-ups.

    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=36833.msg1469053#msg1469053

    About TcBs SBR, I have made possible to TcBs bombing raid on IC.
    However, damage is only 1 point no more no less.
    TcB must submit to IC’s AAA fire before allocating damage.
    That way, TcBs can always be part of any SBR even if there is no naval or air base, make things simpler.
    So, they can be use as fodder for StBs but still at risk of being shot down for 1 meager damage point.


  • Thanks to all of you for your thoughts and help. My opponent is my brother-in-law who has never played this version before and is easy going enough to just play for fun. Not competitive or intense. So he’s a good person to try it all out on.

    The rules are not 100% set in stone yet and I have some time to experiment on my own. Tweaking Cruiser and AAA anti-air (I like the once per turn shot at least for AAA after the initial attack Baron, makes sense, though will have to downgrade the initial volley to 2). Also content to give Strategic Bombers the ability to hit air units but only at 1 (and can only target them after all ground units are extinguished). To make sure this doesn’t get too complicated (like it isn’t already) I made it explicit how you should roll for combat:

    On Land

    Anti-Air (Pre-emptive first round)
    Air (Fighters)
    Air (Bombers)
    Ground

    At Sea

    Submarines (Pre-emptive every round without opp Destroyer; if present move to Naval)
    Anti-Air (First round only, pre-emptive)
    Air (Fighters)
    Air (Bombers)
    Naval

    Finally, changed up fortifications because the format didn’t work properly. Running the math I had to make them very cheap to make them worth purchasing, and I don’t want them to be cheap (I do NOT want fortifications all over the map). So I changed it to this:

    Fortified Position

    Cost: 12

    Ability: A Fortified Position manned by at least one infantry, artillery, and/or mech infantry may take up to 5 hits from an attacking force before units inside begin to suffer casualties. Note: This does NOT protect tactical bombers and fighters being targeted by attacking fighters (Strategic Bombers are considered grounded and are not involved in air combat). Every hit on a Fortified Position in combat puts a hit on the facility up to 5 (see below however: tactical bombing and bombardment can reduce the facility further). A Fortified Position containing no infantry, artillery, or mech infantry units does not defend or sustain damage. Fortified Positions can be built on any territory controlled since the beginning of your turn. You may only build one Fortified Position per territory, however, it may be upgraded to a Fortified Zone for an additional 10IPCs.

    Fortified Positions, like air/naval bases, can be damaged by tactical bombing and bombardment (additionally, like these units they roll for anti-air and battery in defense). Fortified Positions have 10 possible damage points; they cease to be operationally effective immediately after sustaining 5 or more damage points. Each damage point a Fortified Position sustains in bombing or bombardment removes a defensive hit the Fortified Position can absorb for units within.

    For example, a Fortified Position with 0 damage points before combat will be able to sustain as many as 5 hits in combat. A Fortified Position with 3 damage points before combat will be able to sustain 2 damage points in combat. A Fortified Position with 7 damage points before combat will be able to sustain 0 damage points in combat and combat will not reduce its damage points further (only tactical bombing and bombardment may do that, up to a total of 10). If the owner of this Fortified Position wants to make his Fortified Position operational, at the minimum he must pay 3IPCs to allow it to sustain 1 damage point in combat. A Fortified Position that has been taken over by force (meaning there was at least one infantry, artillery, or mech infantry garrisoned in it) will inevitably be handed over to its new controller with at least 5 damage points on it.

    Fortified Positions can be repaired during the repair-units phase of a turn. Damage on a captured Fortified Position sustained in combat must be repaired for the Fortified Position to become operational. Note: Tanks and Mech Infantry may not blitz through an unoccupied Fortified Position.

    Fortified Zone

    Cost: 20

    Same as above except it can take 10 hits out of a total of 20.

    –-

    Know this is extreme but it’s all fun to me. If it doesn’t work out well I’ll scale back as you guys said (sound advice), but since I’m not worried about drama with my partner figure why not go all in. Won’t have the opportunity for such a laid back partner for awhile, and we’ll be able to get at least 2 games in over the holidays.


  • @piscolar:

    Thanks to all of you for your thoughts and help. My opponent is my brother-in-law who has never played this version before and is easy going enough to just play for fun. Not competitive or intense. So he’s a good person to try it all out on.

    Just a suggestion, but being that your brother-in-law hasn’t even played G40 yet I would defiantly go OOB for a couple games. Global is tough enough to play w/o the laundry list of changes you are proposing (just my thought).

  • '17 '16

    Another possibility  is to play Pacific 40 or Europe only, and make some try

  • '17

    I think the fortified position/zone needs some work. Too long and complicated. Echoing Baron and Wild Bill, keep HR changes/ideas very simple.

    I’d rather pay 12 IPCs for 4 Infantry that can fire back over 12 IPCs for 5 “free hits” of a fortified zone. I think you were on to something earlier with the idea of fortifications increasing defenders’ hit roll ability like infantry Defend @3.


  • Yeah, I vacillate on it. I liked the simplicity of the other concept better, but increasing 5 infantry/mech/artillery to +3 would need to price it at 4IPCs. Some may find that fine, but since you can build them anywhere you control I’d expect them all over the map at that price and I don’t want that. When I think fortification I think the Rock of Gibraltar, the Siegfried Line, the Leningrad Fortified Zone… extensive, massive projects that were as living and breathing as the USS Yorktown and the Bismark. I want these places to matter in the gameplay; I want them to be tactically bombed as part of strategy. Maybe 10IPCs and 18IPCs - 20IPCs is better, but I’ll figure out something that works. It will 100% need testing.

    Alternative idea would be my original one, just take away the cap: a generic Fortification where all infantry/mech/artillery get +3. Issue is just figuring out pricing, since that gets complicated based on the situation.

    Open to suggestions.

  • '17 '16 '15

    NWO uses a “bunker” unit. A0 D3 M0 C6 is two hit. May only place one bunker per TTy per turn.

    Might not quite be what you’re looking for but NWO has been around a long time and it seems to work for them.


  • Good thoughts Barney, thanks for sharing. Never played NWO (actually just looked it up now). I considered something similar in my initial brainstorming but I really want to involve the tactical element: thinking of Fortifications like bases for ground units, rather than ground units themselves.

  • '17 '16

    @piscolar:

    Good thoughts Barney, thanks for sharing. Never played NWO (actually just looked it up now). I considered something similar in my initial brainstorming but I really want to involve the tactical element: thinking of Fortifications like bases for ground units, rather than ground units themselves.

    One old idea to make AAA unit more interesting was this little tweak, which can represents fortified hardpoints, is to make it a 2 hits unit:
    Anti-Aircraft Artillery
    Attack 0
    Defense 0, 1 @1 preemptive, up to three planes, 1 per plane max.
    NCM 1
    Hits 2, auto-repaired after combat
    Cost 5
    In addition, if no combat unit is with it, then it is auto-destroy, per OOB rule.

    For 15 IPCs, you get 3 regular hits, 3 buffer hits, and up to 9 preemptive strike @1 on aircraft.
    With Infantry, it is 5 hits and 10 defense points, but you loose 3 units on first casualties.

    An additional ability to figure Atlantic Wall and Siegfried Line can be that when attacked, you may roll 1 defense @1 of preemptive fire on ground unit attacking per AAA unit.

    Another possibility can be this:
    Anti-Aircraft Artillery as Fortifications
    Attack 0
    Defense 1, up to three preemptive roll @1, against up to three units, ground or plane, 1 per attacking unit max.
    NCM 1
    Hits 2, auto-repaired after combat
    Cost 5
    The one time preemptive roll can simulate the fact that once fortifications are overwhelmed, they can no more use their defensive weapons.

  • '17 '16

    @barney:

    NWO uses a “bunker” unit. A0 D3 M0 C6 is two hit. May only place one bunker per TTy per turn.

    Might not quite be what you’re looking for but NWO has been around a long time and it seems to work for them.

    On a quick glance, it seems correct.
    But looking closely, it is no way optimized and have nothing to beat Infantry.
    2 Inf brings A2-4 D4 M1 2 hits for 6 IPCs.
    It is always better to invest on Infantry.

    A specialized defensive unit must be better than Inf on this point.
    For example, a 6 IPCs needs to be at least
    Attack 0
    Defense 4
    Move 0
    2 hits, auto-repaired after combat.

    But to gain something tactically it should be better like:
    Attack 0
    Defense 3
    Move 0
    Cost 4
    1 hit

    Or
    Attack 0
    Defense 3
    Move 0
    Cost 5
    2 hits, auto-repaired after combat.

  • '17 '16 '15

    @ Baron

    yea I’d say overall inf would be the better buy. Going strictly defense though you get two 3 point hitters as opposed to two 2 pointers.

    I haven’t played nwo in a long time and never that much (was pretty fun though). Don’t remember if bunkers auto repair or not. Don’t know how often they’re used either.


  • Baron, love that you mentioned that idea. Thinking about what all of you said about the cost-value proposition this morning I thought to add something similar to my design: an “anti-ground” battery roll against attacking ground units before the first round. Fortified Positions would roll up to 3 die (hits at 1, 2 with advanced artillery) against attacking ground units. Fortified Zones would roll up to 6. I like it because bases usually have more than one ability and this makes fortifications a little more interesting.

    Costs would be 12IPCs and 22IPCs respectively. Of course, to use this ability the bases would have to be operational (manned by at least 1 infantry/mech/artillery and above 50% damage-wise).

    But using AAA in a more advanced capacity is a cool way to take elements of this while not adding new units/facilities.

  • '17 '16

    @piscolar:

    Baron, love that you mentioned that idea. Thinking about what all of you said about the cost-value proposition this morning I thought to add something similar to my design: an “anti-ground” battery roll against attacking ground units before the first round. Fortified Positions would roll up to 3 die (hits at 1, 2 with advanced artillery) against attacking ground units. Fortified Zones would roll up to 6. I like it because bases usually have more than one ability and this makes fortifications a little more interesting.

    Costs would be 12IPCs and 22IPCs respectively. Of course, to use this ability the bases would have to be operational (manned by at least 1 infantry/mech/artillery and above 50% damage-wise).

    But using AAA in a more advanced capacity is a cool way to take elements of this while not adding new units/facilities.

    About Fortified Position FP, IMO it is a high cost and a complex hits mechanics.
    Since Fortified Zone FZ is only 10 hits for up to 20 IPCs to repair, I would do same for FP.
    Same as NBs or ABs, 3 hits to make it unoperational, up to 6 hits damage.
    Each hit done by TcBR, reduced hit absorbing capacity.

    Fortified Position
    Attack 0
    Defense 1*, single preemptive @1, against up to three units, 1 roll per unit max.
    Move 0
    Hits 3, reduced by 1 for each damage point, 0 hits if unoperational (3 hits and more).
    1 IPC per damage point to repair.
    Need to be manned by at least 1 Inf, MI or Art.
    Cost 8
    Only 1 FP per TTy.

    What do you think?

    For comparison with 8 IPCs, you get 2.667 Inf Att 2.667 Def 5.333 Hits 2.667 Move 1.
    So, in itself FP is no better than Inf, except if you can rebuilt a damaged one after an unsuccessful attack.


  • When I think of a Fortification, I think of structure being able to withstand a lot of punishment - far more than a base, and depending on the size comparable to an Industrial Complex. Fortifications are, after all, designed to be bombarded… and survive it, at least for a long time. Since even a superficially damaged Industrial Complex has restricted production, I figured the same rules would simply apply for a Fortification and would be easy enough to follow for a player. A single Tactical Bomber having a 50% chance of destroying a Fortification and a 1/6th chance of totally pummeling it seems too low (would make sense, however, for a bunker, so this could just be our artistic conception).

    Also, for me the cost is a feature not a bug. I really do not want these all over the map since they are facilities that can be placed anywhere you control and can’t be destroyed. Their benefit is 1) above-average defense per cost and 2) that they can be built at key strategic strongholds like Novgorod and Ukraine, and even in places where there are no industrial complexes nearby (like Egypt). If an attacker doesn’t have the means to break them down, they can really stall an offense, particularly a Fortified Zone. If he does have the means, however, it’s possible - just requires a change in tactics. One strategy I can see is using bombers/battleships/cruisers (I include the latter 2 with tactical bombardment in my rules) to target a Fortified Position even a turn prior to an assault if your forces are not ready. Bleeds the opponent, he will need to spend as many as 20IPCs if he wants to bring a Fortification up to full strength. Of course, the attacker risks AAA/battery and the defender can also send in planes to intercept the bombers… but that just adds to the fun of the new dynamics. For me at least  :wink:

    Overall it should be a big commitment for a player to build any Fortification - especially since if he loses it, like Air Bases, Naval Bases, and Industrial Complexes it can be used against him later. Realistically all infantry on defense are somewhat dug-in already; Fortifications are the substantial structures that would be carefully considered by enemies when they planned if and how to attack a territory. IMO they should be reflected as such.

  • '17 '16 '15

    Using BBs and CAs as bombers doing an SBR sounds pretty cool. I guess they would be impervious to interceptors though ? Maybe tacs could intercept ships only ?

    Think it’s just a matter of finding the right numbers for your fortresses piscolar. You’ll just have to playtest it out. My concern would be that they’re not too powerful so they can’t be cracked. I like the idea of having a ground unit present to activate them.

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