Should we make better rules for invadable neutrals? (1940)

  • '21 '18 '16

    We have house rule that activates Spain pro-Axis as such: Germany collects income.
    Franco joins the Axis powers. Spain can no longer remain neutral due to increasing pressure from Hitler.
    Place German units consisting of 4 INF, 1 armor, 1 mobile infantry, 1 artillery, 1 fighter, 1 naval base, 1 airbase, 1 Minor Industrial complex in Spain. Place 1 Italian transport and 1 Italian destroyer in SZ 92. Morocco place 1 Italian INF (This event is negated if Spain is ever seized by the Allies. Morocco and naval units unaffected.)


  • @WILD:

    @Charles:

    How much is enough punishment? Maybe we should ask Germany. My new setup for Spain is 10 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 AA gun, 1 tank, and 1 fighter.
    I revised the setup above after a playtest.

    So you dropped an 1 art and 1 mech from the orig Spanish army that you posted.

    In your test I’m assuming the US attacked Spain

    What did the US take in if so? (was I close on the US attack force)

    How’d it go for the Americans afterwords (did UK reinforce)

    Were the allies able to hold and advance, or did the axis push them back into the see?

    Very few countries were invaded at all so I lowered most of their forces.

    My goal here is a good balance of historical accuracy, limited special rules, and playabillity. 
    Leaving the armies the size they are is unhistorical and unfair and can be easily fixed without special rules.  Leaving Spain a walk in for the U.S. will upset balance. 
    But it all comes down to the fact that we dislike the OOB neutral rules.  If we each make good house rules that we share for certain people that’s great!  :-D.


  • I thought about giving neutrals units and factories on crack. I wanted to change the neutrals to be more power thus making Switzerland, Turkey, and Sweden the most powerful neutrals to invaded. I mean everything. Infantry, tanks, aircraft, naval, and factories and try to match how close they are to real life. I always found it stupid that Argentina getting invaded would drag Afghanistan into war. Doesn’t make sense. My idea of neutrals is to remove them from being single territory. I thought about building each continent the same size as a regular AnA board. As far as what happens to neutrals if they don’t get conquered is difficult to work with. G40 rules states that their military just sits as is. I thought about the nation that they were closes to will join that nation automatically or even go as far as making them their own faction.


  • Here’s what I did. While it’s pretty much inconceivable all neutral countries would go to war if one of them was invaded, it’s NOT inconceivable some would have alliances, regional in nature and among countries with shared interests. Excluding Mongolia (whose rules I left the same), I created 4 alliances among the remaining neutrals. No, not everything in these alliances make sense (Switzerland and Afghanistan would never go to war unless they were invaded), but it adds a new dimension to the game. Also, invaded neutral countries have an impact on geopolitics, so countries need to think carefully before attacking. It is risky and costly, however, in some cases there is value in doing it - unlike in the actual game.

    Here’s the way it works: each alliance has one country that is the center of it all. This is the real gem - it either has the most IPC value or strategic value. The four countries are Sweden, Turkey, Argentina, and Spain. These countries each have a minor IPC and a proper military. This was easy to pick out, as these countries all had at least 2IPCs in value and 4+ call-ups. So I took their initial call-ups, and added 40IPCs worth of soldiers/bases for Argentina (4), 50 to Sweden and Spain (6), and 60 to Turkey (8). I based the units on what such a country would reasonably have. Sweden had advanced industry and an effective navy but hardly any air force in 1940; Spain was along the lines of Italy in land power, Turkey was mostly struggling to modernize but had fortifications and a small but professional british-trained air force (insignificant navy), Argentina had a small army and navy (though far better than its neighbors) and a great port.

    Here are the official rules and set up:

    If you attack a single neutral country, not all of them will become hostile - only ones they have a mutual defense pact with. There are four alliances on the map; an attack against one of these members is an attack on all.

    Mongolia is unaffected by these changes.

    If a territory/alliance is attacked, it will immediately join a specified member of the opposite side.

    Note: Each South American neutral “country” for our purposes has been combined. For example, Venezuela is now a part of Ecuador and Colombia. “Greater Venezuela” does not receive an IPC bonus for this, however it does receive an additional infantry unit per added territory. So instead of spawning +2 infantry when attacked, it will create +4. Same rules apply for Greater Argentina (Argentina/Uruguay/Paraguay) and Greater Chile (Chile, Bolivia, Peru).

    Finally, note that Sierra Leone is UK territory and Liberia becomes a US territory once it enters the war. They are not neutral territories.

    Starting Neutral Territory Units:

    South American Alliance:
    Greater Venezuela: 4 Infantry
    Greater Chile: 4 Infantry
    Greater Argentina: 6 Infantry + 3 Artillery +  1 AAA + Naval Base + Destroyer (Sea Zone 85) + Minor IPC

    If attacked by the Allies, the South American Alliance joins Germany. If attacked by the Axis, the South American Alliance joins the US. All of the South American Alliance’s units and factories immediately become controlled by that player. An Axis attack on the South American Alliance is considered a declaration of war against the US. The US may not attack the South American Alliance until war against Axis has been declared.

    Total Alliance IPC Value: 6

    Iberian Alliance:
    Spain: 8 Infantry + 3 Artillery + 2 Tanks + 2 AAA + 1 Fighter + Minor IPC
    Portugal: 2 Infantry
    Mozambique: 2 Infantry
    Angola: 2 Infantry
    Rio de Oro
    Portuguese Guinea

    If attacked by the Allies, the Iberian Alliance joins Germany or Italy. If attacked by the Axis, the Iberian Alliance joins the UK (European Economy) or France. All of its units and factories immediately become controlled by that player. An Axis attack against Spain is considered a declaration of war against the US.

    Total Alliance IPC Value: 5

    Swedish-Swiss Alliance:
    Sweden: 6 Infantry + 4 Artillery + 2 Tanks + 1 Mech Infantry + 2 AAA + Destroyer (Sea Zone 113) + Minor IPC
    Switzerland: 2 Infantry

    If attacked by the Allies, Sweden joins Germany and Switzerland joins Germany or Italy. If attacked by the Axis, Sweden joins the UK (European Economy) and Switzerland joins France. All of their units and factories immediately become controlled by those players. An Axis attack against Sweden or Switzerland is considered a declaration of War against Russia and the US.

    Total IPC Value: 3

    Islamic Alliance:
    Turkey: 9 Infantry + 4 Artillery + 1 Tank + 1 Fighter + 2 AAA + Fortification + Minor IPC
    Saudi Arabia: 2 Infantry
    Afghanistan: 4 Infantry

    If attacked by the Allies, Turkey and Saudi Arabia join Germany or Italy, and Afghanistan joins Germany. If attacked by the Axis, Turkey and Afghanistan join Russia or UK (European Economy), and Saudi Arabia joins the UK (European Economy). All of the Islamic Alliance’s units and factories immediately become controlled by that player. An Axis attack on the Islamic Alliance is the equivalent of a declaration of war on Russia, the UK, ANZAC, and France. Russia may not attack the Islamic Alliance until war against Germany has been declared.

    Additionally, the Bosporus Straight is considered a universal national objective worth an additional +1 IPC to the player controlling it.

    Note: Italian and German national objectives include Saudi Arabia in their quest for Strategic Oil Reserves. If controlled, they gain an additional +2 IPCs such as in Northwest Persia, Iraq, and Persia.

    Total Alliance IPC Value: 5

  • '21 '20 '18 '17

    If you break the tripwire rule, invading Turkey and Spain are no brainers, anyone who can do it should do it, its not just the income but the new paths opened to the money zones.

    What people are essentially saying is that they want to add 10 new minor powers to the game.  I suppose that’s fine, but they are just like defended territories that cannot fight back, they take time to design balance set up, and may just sit there for the whole game.  Someone got ahold of some taupe colored HBG infantry at the tourney, these make good neutrals.

    These ideas seem more appropriate for GW36 or a game that starts with more choice and complexity.  This “minor powers” concept was tried in the 1914 AxA and its complex and confusing.

    If it just adds more territories to be attacked and killed by Germany, Germany will do that early and often, they have abundant power to attack all the (worthy) neutrals at once already.  America has its own neutral zone, but at 6 IPCs and in the wrong direction, its not comparable.

    There also aren’t any on the Pac board, so again it seems to address Germany most clearly (as the power to kill/take any neutrals in range and the forces to do so lie with Germany at game start)


  • Which is insane to see Germany do that is the fact of the matter is that Germany from 37 to 43, did not give two $hits about your neutrality and only choose not to invade Switzerland or Sweden because those two nations had an actually good size military. I like the idea of small neutral alliances but I believe Switzerland should have ten infantry, not two. As Switzerland went into war economy once France was invaded. I would go as far as giving Switzerland two fighters and two AA guns.


  • @WILD:

    @Charles:

    How much is enough punishment? Maybe we should ask Germany. My new setup for Spain is 10 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 AA gun, 1 tank, and 1 fighter.
    I revised the setup above after a playtest.

    So you dropped an 1 art and 1 mech from the orig Spanish army that you posted.

    In your test I’m assuming the US attacked Spain

    What did the US take in if so? (was I close on the US attack force)

    How’d it go for the Americans afterwords (did UK reinforce)

    Were the allies able to hold and advance, or did the axis push them back into the see?

    De Gaulle where you at ? The Vichy catch up to you ?

    You never did answer this question. Im still looking at ideas before game Saturday. How did the US do if they attacked Spain ? My plan is to attack Spain to SBR Rome and Paris and take one or thee other. Other option is From Africa but


  • In a Europe game, US has Spain by round 4 or 5 if it wants it. In a Global game, the US can get there sooner granted that Pacific forces are brought over to cover the transports (instead of having to build an Atlantic fleet).

    I feel that my setup on the first page is well balanced and also respectful to history.


  • @Charles:

    In a Europe game, US has Spain by round 4 or 5 if it wants it. In a Global game, the US can get there sooner granted that Pacific forces are brought over to cover the transports (instead of having to build an Atlantic fleet).

    I feel that my setup on the first page is well balanced and also respectful to history.

    Thanks. Im going with these stats for now. Axis needs to go through Turkey to get bonus point in game for Mideast oil. US does the same thing every game so now Spain is an option which it should be.

    Spain : 6 inf, 1 art, 1 tank, 1 fig, 1 aa gun (leftover from Spanish War) 1 dest ea sz

    Turkey : 5 inf, 1 art, 1 fig, 1 aa gun.  1 dest sz  Weaker in supplies.

    If I need to increase will see. Depends on setup and what comes from Pacific and how fast allies can move in Atlantic in my game due to German Subs and if Germany gets there Sub Interdiction NA, then it will cost US UK ea 1 icp per German sub every turn
    in which now allies will be delayed due to destroyer buys at start of game. Too many subs in Atlantic could very well make US go another route the longer there delayed in taking Spain. By then Italy will have done what they need to do and later turns can defend better. Or do Operation Torch. Goal is to SBR the crap out of Rome early.


  • While deplpying minimal forces in the neutrals might look attractive, it sort of ruins the game when the Axis invade Turkey every time as does the US invade Spain.  The strategic advantage is too great to be missed.  I have found it necessary to dissuade the great powers by making them pay considerably for these assaults.


  • @Charles:

    While deplpying minimal forces in the neutrals might look attractive, it sort of ruins the game when the Axis invade Turkey every time as does the US invade Spain.  The strategic advantage is too great to be missed.  I have found it necessary to dissuade the great powers by making them pay considerably for these assaults.

    Ya but historically there were plans for both territories to be attacked. The game becomes to generic after so many games. Thats why you see guys now adding stuff to the G40oob game ( Still a great game ). I got 5  39 games that I play and most stuff thats been coming out that HBG and others have put in games now was in these games since 1997.


  • @Charles:

    While deplpying minimal forces in the neutrals might look attractive, it sort of ruins the game when the Axis invade Turkey every time as does the US invade Spain.  The strategic advantage is too great to be missed.  I have found it necessary to dissuade the great powers by making them pay considerably for these assaults.

    After playing game Saturday , Allies never went to Spain. But realized now that I’ll probably put in your suggestion for Spain troops because the allies could build a IC in Spain. I know you dont like but got to change game up so it aint always the same routes. If Germany sees it coming, Italy and Germany can counter it and probably take back. Will see.


  • @SS:

    @Charles:

    While deplpying minimal forces in the neutrals might look attractive, it sort of ruins the game when the Axis invade Turkey every time as does the US invade Spain.  The strategic advantage is too great to be missed.  I have found it necessary to dissuade the great powers by making them pay considerably for these assaults.

    After playing game Saturday , Allies never went to Spain. But realized now that I’ll probably put in your suggestion for Spain troops because the allies could build a IC in Spain. I know you dont like but got to change game up so it aint always the same routes. If Germany sees it coming, Italy and Germany can counter it and probably take back. Will see.

    If you take the basic numbers, France has a total factory strength of 9 (usually in German hands) with Italy having 13 right in direct naval and air distance to Spain. Hence why I don’t like the idea of US landing in Spain because you need a good size force to take Spain and hold on to it and then factory it and now worry about defending a factory worth of 3 against a total of 22 from the Axis and on top of that, you just turned the neutrals pro-Axis and thus US and UK have to reinforce it (which normally would be easy for US as they usually have naval dominance right from the get go). However, you can argue it is worth it even if Germany or Italy takes Spain because it just drained Axis resources away from USSR.


  • 1. Get rid of the “attack one, fight all” rule on strict neutrals. 
    2. Allied powers (except Russia) cannot attack strict neutrals.
    3. Strict neutrals must always be occupied, otherwise they become friendly neutrals for other side.
    4. Strict neutrals always get 1 infantry beginning each turn that must be attacked (represents partisans).


  • @Carolina:

    1. Get rid of the “attack one, fight all” rule on strict neutrals. 
    2. Allied powers (except Russia) cannot attack strict neutrals.
    3. Strict neutrals must always be occupied, otherwise they become friendly neutrals for other side.
    4. Strict neutrals always get 1 infantry beginning each turn that must be attacked (represents partisans).

    In the scale of G40, there isn’t any nations that USSR invaded that were neutral.


  • I think every neutral needs a more varied army- the neutral nations of WWII were not all a handful of infantry divisions. Turkey, for example, should have the 8 infantry, plus a fighter, an artillery, and maybe even a tank. They should also have a destroyer or two. Much more intimidating than just 8 infantry. And who’s to say that game events can’t influence neutrals? For example: if Moscow falls, roll one die. On a roll of 6, Sweden joins Germany (just as an example). I also like the Global War idea of ‘aligning’ neutrals a lot more than just moving units in. For example, if Axis powers control both Yugoslavia and Greece, Bulgaria aligns to Germany (just as an example).


  • @AxisAndAllies1940:

    I think every neutral needs a more varied army- the neutral nations of WWII were not all a handful of infantry divisions. Turkey, for example, should have the 8 infantry, plus a fighter, an artillery, and maybe even a tank. They should also have a destroyer or two. Much more intimidating than just 8 infantry. And who’s to say that game events can’t influence neutrals? For example: if Moscow falls, roll one die. On a roll of 6, Sweden joins Germany (just as an example). I also like the Global War idea of ‘aligning’ neutrals a lot more than just moving units in. For example, if Axis powers control both Yugoslavia and Greece, Bulgaria aligns to Germany (just as an example).

    As I said time and time again, in terms of real firepower and numbers, Swizerland and Turkey should have the largest military for neutrals.

  • '17 Customizer

    I combine these neutral rules with the CDG 1939 v3 setup (which is really great btw).

    My questions are in regards to the Islamic alliance.

    1)  What is the house rule for the fortification mentioned in the Turkey setup?
    2)  The rule states Islamic Alliance is worth 5 IPCs (2 Turkey, 2 Saudi Arable, 1 Bosporus) but that is Allies only.  Axis would get 7 if Saudi Arabia NO is included?

    Thank you…

  • 2023 '22 '21 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16

    So are people still seriously considering having ‘groups’ of strict neutrals that support each other? If so, how would you group them?

    I could imagine Sweden and Switzerland supporting each other. Both are industrialized central European countries with strong militaries, a history of neutrality, and vaguely Christian Social Democrat kind of ideology.

    It’s not clear whether Spain and Portugal would support or oppose each other – if you invade Portugal, does that flip Spain to the enemy side? Or to your side? South America seems like it should mostly follow Spain…except there were rivalries within South America. I think Ecuador and Peru even fought a war in the 1940s against each other.

    Same problem with Turkey, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia…sure, they’re all Muslim, but they’re also rivals.

    I still think the politics/diplomacy in G40 are too thin to support anything more nuanced than the current neutrality system, but I’m open to practical, concrete arguments to the contrary. It’s not enough to just say “the current system is totally unrealistic” – you have to specify some specific alternative that is more realistic and still playable.


  • I don’t like the idea of neutral alliances because my idea of neutrals having more firepower is based off history which there is a reason why in G40, they’re neutral because they want nothing to do with WWII. Some countries like Sweden were threaten with invasion by both USSR, Germany, and UK. Switzerland should be the most neutral of neutrals in the game. Portugal has a defensive alliance with UK and that should play a role somehow. But the idea of the Muslim Alliance is foolish and those nations were mostly pro-Allies because they wanted to make money off their oil. Afganistan for example had talks with Germany, USSR, and UK to try to get them to join their side.

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