• '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Admittedly some of these are only for Classic rules, but some are also good in revised.

    What’s up with the rules in this game???

    Battleship Bombardment (Classic)  Infantry killed by 16" shells fired from miles off coast, hours before enemy ground units begin their assault on the beaches can mysteriously stay alive long enough to return fire?

    Bombers flying miles in the sky can hit infantry with 66% effectiveness, but artillery 3 feet away are only 33% effective?

    Tanks and Infantry can shoot down planes?  Really?  Just what kind of motor is driving your turrent, Mr. Patton!  And are those 3 pound depleted uranium shells in your pistols?

    And what’s with transports?  They get attacked by 40 destroyers off the Gold Coast and they mysteriously find a 5 pound gun to sink one, but when they’re given hours of notice they cannot find that same weapon to attack with???

    Just some inconsistencies Adonai and I were discussing in MSN.


  • Thats some of the stuff we hate as well.

    How can a liberty ship shoot at high level bombers?

    How can subs shoot at each other?

    Why cant the defender retreat?

    Why in naval combat battleship salvos miss battleships and allways hit the transports? ( sounds like that startrek episode where the “security guard” allways dies… oh what thats every episode)

    How do infantry shoot down huge quantities of fighters in land combat? Those fighters are traveling at 450 MPH and a rifle cant really target many of them. Look at the attack at hawaii… Japs lost 29 planes from aa guns. How come 1,500 planes are destroyed when an infantry unit rolls a one?

    yes yes yes … you detractors can infer all you want about… “you see an infantry unit is made up of such and such and they have specific ability to hit many planes …etc”

    or those of you who say  " heck its only a game with dice… what do you expect"

    yea i heard all of this and it does not answer the question… its like sweeping dirt under the rug… “dont ask dont tell” policy it seems.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    I agree, why can’t the defender retreat?  Give the attacker one or two rounds until you’re almost out of infantry, then pull all your tanks and planes back a space.  Force him to take it with less then he wanted!

    Subs firing on subs I can understand.  After all, if we didn’t have sub on sub violence, how could we have Crazy Ivans?

    And that is interesting.  You’d think a battleship would at least try to target a carrier, not an empty cargo vessel…unless it’s a german battleship captained by a U-boat commander…

  • 2007 AAR League

    And explain to me how a carrier group has a fifty percent chance of destroying a unit of destroyers, even if it has no fighters attached. What does it do, ram the ships?

    Why do you take empty territories during combat moves. I always thought combat involved, well, combat.


  • Well (and I know IL is going to blast me here :-P )

    The AC represents the AC and its support ships… ASW, screening vessels, etc.

    As for “vacant” territories, you still have to move in, assume contro, and instil order among the populace.

    I mean, if someone were to invade the US, the military is not actually HERE in Raleigh and metro area, but the invader would still have to fight to secure it.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    @ncscswitch:

    Well (and I know IL is going to blast me here :-P )

    The AC represents the AC and its support ships… ASW, screening vessels, etc.

    As for “vacant” territories, you still have to move in, assume contro, and instil order among the populace.

    I mean, if someone were to invade the US, the military is not actually HERE in Raleigh and metro area, but the invader would still have to fight to secure it.

    Amen to taht.  You have partisans, gang members (America’s last line of defense against those ruthless Canadians!  j/k), average citizens with high powered hunting rifles, national guard, etc.

    Also, the AC should probably have an attack value of 2 and defense of 3.  It’s easier to hit something comming at you because they’re driving INTO your gunfire, not away from it.


  • @Jennifer:

    @ncscswitch:

    Well (and I know IL is going to blast me here :-P )

    The AC represents the AC and its support ships… ASW, screening vessels, etc.

    As for “vacant” territories, you still have to move in, assume contro, and instil order among the populace.

    I mean, if someone were to invade the US, the military is not actually HERE in Raleigh and metro area, but the invader would still have to fight to secure it.

    Amen to taht.  You have partisans, gang members (America’s last line of defense against those ruthless Canadians!  j/k), average citizens with high powered hunting rifles, national guard, etc.

    Also, the AC should probably have an attack value of 2 and defense of 3.  It’s easier to hit something comming at you because they’re driving INTO your gunfire, not away from it.

    Just you wait Jennifer.  We’ll bring our polar bears and harpoon guns to get you all! :-P

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    I see your polar bears and harpoons and raise you Spongebob Squarepants and Barney!

    Or are WMDs not permitted in this battle?


  • You could explain it by that way:
    Subs fire in the opening fire the first round and because of this they can reload faster than the other ships and fire in the opening round ones more, alternatively subs are able to change their position and depth fastly and thus can surprise the enemy every round  :-D
    If you could retreat as defender it would be more realistic, but people would also be defending much more and the balance would be hurt hard.
    For example you plane to take out the German aircraft and attack EEu and Ukr. and WEu on R1, the enemy just pulls back and saves most of his units whereas Russia can fight against a more powerful Germany.

    About the shore bombardement:  I wouldn´t criticise the shore bombardement, but the power of the amphibious assault units, which is simply to high.
    If you would land with 5 Inf 5Art 5Arm in a region where theres an army of the same sice you would have no chance, because they would already blow away half of your army in the water or on the beach where there´s no defence for you. I would make a rule where the attacker has only attack strength 1 in 1st round of battle or smth. like that. Sure you would have to make the Allies stronger than.  8-)

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Actually, they did fix shore bombardment in Revised.  Which is good.

    As for the statement that the shore bombardment flies just over the helmets of the landing infantry, D-Day was preceeded by how many hours of Shore Bombardment?

    Also, defending infantry can dig in to avoid bombs from bombers. And Artillery can shower a more precise area.  Maybe bombers should be Att: 2, Def: 1, Cost 8 and Artillery should be Att: 4, Def: 2, Cost 12 (and have no bearing on infantry’s attack ability)


  • @Jennifer:

    Also, defending infantry can dig in to avoid bombs from bombers. And Artillery can shower a more precise area.  Maybe bombers should be Att: 2, Def: 1, Cost 8 and Artillery should be Att: 4, Def: 2, Cost 12 (and have no bearing on infantry’s attack ability)

    Yes but than a bomber would do less damage than a tank or a fighter and only less more than Infantry.
    That doesn´t sound so realistic to me too.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    It would do less against combat units.  It would still do full damage on SBR.  Reward for making bombers. :)

  • 2007 AAR League

    The problem is that the most important factor in these cases is that a game turn consists of many months and the size of the territory your units are operating in. If you want to look at it in a semi-realistic way then that is what you have to take into account.

    When you lose a fighter, for example, it can be assumed that, over the course of those many months, that it has taken many losses due to a variety of factors such as AA fire, mechanical failures, resupply interdiction, sabotage, and loss of competent pilots. You don’t lose 1500 fighters in one day but you have lost enough aircraft over time that it ceases to be an effective fighting force and that the surviving aircraft and men have been reorganized into other units to replentish their losses.

    The same goes for ground and naval units. A naval battle takes hours not months and an inferior force isn’t going to stick around to be decimated either. The way you have to look at it is that the larger force is making opportunistic attacks over time to inflict more casualties, by attrition, that it takes.

    As far as I’m concerned the game is balanced to within a unit here or there and a couple IPC’s. If you want more realism you need to make an entirely new game. It would take a larger map, more territories, resource and supply chains, naval and air bases, unit limits per turn and a new combat system.

    I can’t say how many times I have seen a US fleet operating deep into the Japanese controlled South Pacific when the closest base is Hawaii or German units in Southern Africa when the Allies control North Africa. In both of those cases those units would be under heavy amounts of resupply interdiction and should be a lot less effective than their numbers or combat ability would indicate.


  • Amen.

    There are an infinite number of holes to poke in this game when it comes to realism. But no other game covers the scope of A&A and remains as playable. A suspension of disbelief is needed, and we’re all playing by the same rules after all.

    One suggestion would be to switch to a d20 and try to make the numbers more realistic- i.e. make infantry hit 20% of the time, or make transports hit only 10-15% of the time etc. At the least the effect of bad dice would be diminished.


  • Yeah d20 would be fine, but I don´t like low luck because it´s too predictable and also much less realistic than normal luck.
    A general could,t just say “OK I´ve got 10% more troops than the enemy, so its 100% sure that I´ll win.”.
    Armies were influenced by experience, moral, supply, leadership,…. there are enough examples in history where a weaker army won a big battle agianst a stronger enemy.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Actually, no luck would fit your example.  Even in low luck you can out number the enemy and loose.  Just the odds of 5 infantry vs 1 infnatry loosing is exceptionally smaller.

    Also, low luck changes the strategy.  You actually end up using more for your attacks then you normally would, to guarentee a hit.  So instead of 1 inf, 1 art vs 1 inf, you might see 1 inf, 1 art and a fighter, just to break the “6” barrier.


  • @88:

    One suggestion would be to switch to a d20 and try to make the numbers more realistic- i.e. make infantry hit 20% of the time, or make transports hit only 10-15% of the time etc. At the least the effect of bad dice would be diminished.

    Bad dice are part of the game.  The swings in luck are part of what make the game fun.  When I say “fun” I mean it adds tension, suspense as a battle unfolds.  Without it, battles turn into algebra equations that are solved, not fought.

    Luck is a big factor in real battles.  It reminds me of a story I once heard about Napoleon:

    Napoleon’s aides came to him to recommend a man to promote to general. They went into detail extolling the man’s virtues and why he would make an excellent addition to Napoleon’s staff. Napoleon cut them off half way through their speech. “Yes, yes, I understand he’s brave, he’s smart, he knows tactics, he is loved by the men. But I only need to know one thing.”

    His aides nervously looked at each other. “Yes, Emperor?”

    “Is he lucky?”

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Yes, bad dice can be part of the game.  They can also ruin a game.  If you’re always lucky with the dice or always unlucky with the dice in a game it ruins the fun.

    good dice rolls beat good tactics

    unfortunately is true.  However, Low Luck still uses the dice, it just reduces the luck factor by allowing you to strategically place units, buy the right units and prepare for counter attacks.  LL makes it more like chess.  ADS makes it more like Yahtzee.

    Point:

    2 German Fighters, 1 German Submarine vs one British Battleship (2h):

    Battleship damaged, all attackers destroyed.  YAHTZEE!!!

    9 Infantry attacking 2 infantry:

    1 defender killed, all attackers killed.  YAHTZEE

    Eventually you have to sit there and say what are the odds?

    Personally, I like the idea of keeping all the odds open.  So I’d say, with the online calculators out there, figure out the odds of success and failure then roll 1d100.  Speaking of which, I always wanted to see if the dicey could handle other dice, so I’m going to test it below.

    Percentile Dice
    DiceRolling 1 100-sided dice:
    20

    D20
    DiceRolling 1 20-sided dice:
    10

    D10
    DiceRolling 1 10-sided dice:
    10

    D8
    DiceRolling 1 8-sided dice:
    8

    D4
    DiceRolling 1 4-sided dice:
    1

    D2
    DiceRolling 1 2-sided dice:
    1

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    oh Snap!  :evil:

    Anyone wanna play a game with D100’s?  heheh

    4 Infantry at 20% vs 8 Infantry at 40%

    Attack:
    DiceRolling 4 100-sided dice:
    26, 45, 88, 28

    Defend:
    DiceRolling 8 100-sided dice:
    75, 4, 21, 53, 86, 87, 4, 86


  • Sweet! Nice job, Jen. My friend and I have been working on a d20 variant of A&A, so this is nice to know. %dice is obviously the best choice, but it gets a bit clunky in FTF games to roll so many dice…

    And yes, luck is a part of the game, but I’ve had a beautiful 20 turn game go south in a hurry on one turn of bad luck. It was a game that had been picked up and written down multiple times- the kind you spend ALOT of time thinking about. Bad dice killed it. It sucked the fun out of the best game I’ve ever been a part of for both winner and loser.

    When you win on crazy dice do you ever truly feel like you outplayed your opponent?

    When you lose on bad dice do you truly feel like you were out-strategized?

    No, and no. So as Jen alluded to, sometimes it feels like you might as well play yahtzee.

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