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Author Topic: Chinese Speed Bumps (G40)  (Read 444 times)
The Pripet Martian
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« on: January 12, 2018, 09:39:29 pm »
+2

While I've only been playing G40 for about a year, some patterns have emerged. The most notable of these is that the Japanese player sweeps through China quickly, taking control of the entire country and often plunging into the USSR in an attack coordinated with Germany. The result is almost always an Axis victory.

To give the Allies a chance, I've come up with a couple of rules to slow the Japanese advance through China: Red Dragon Brigades and Flying "The Hump."

RED DRAGON BRIGADES

To better reflect the nature of Chinese resistance to Japanese occupation, as well as the manpower and resources necessary to control a country as vast as China, the following rules apply:

1.   For any native Chinese territory (a territory with a Chinese roundel printed on it) controlled by the Japanese but unoccupied by a land or air unit (except AAA), the Chinese player rolls one die during the Japanese Convoy Disruption phase. On a roll of 3 or less, the territory reverts to Chinese control and one Chinese Infantry unit is immediately placed on that territory at no cost. The IPC chart is adjusted accordingly *before* Japanís Collect Income phase.
2.   Red Dragon Brigades placed in territories containing Japanese AAA units cause the immediate destruction of said AAA units.

FLYING "THE HUMP"

Unable to move supplies through the USSR to China and with the Burma Road closed by the Japanese, the Allies began the extremely dangerous undertaking of flying supplies over the Himalayas from India to China. With this rule, the Allies may move infantry and artillery units to China via air transport, subject to the following restrictions:

1.   Allied powers not at war with Japan may not move into, over or through Chinese territories. Thus, infantry and artillery units (including artillery purchased by China) may not be flown into Chinese territories if no Allied powers are at war with Japan.
2.   Each air transport may carry a maximum of two infantry units or one artillery or AAA plus one infantry.
3.   Air transports have a range of six spaces.
4.   Movement occurs during the Noncombat Move phase.
5.   For each air transport attempting to cross the Hump, roll one die. On a roll of three or less, the crossing is successful and the aircraft may continue to its destination. On a roll of four or five, the flight is grounded by bad weather and must return to its territory of origin. On a roll of six, the flight crashes in the Himalayas and both the aircraft and cargo are destroyed.
6.   When the UK is at war with Japan and the Burma Road is closed, China may purchase artillery on its turn and place those units in India to await transport. Any Allied power at war with Japan may, on a subsequent turn, attempt to ferry the Chinese artillery from India to China, but only one Allied power per turn may make the attempt.
7.   Chinese artillery units in India may not take part in combat and are automatically destroyed if any Axis power captures India.

Note that "air transport" can be either notional (as with OOB rules for paratroopers) or pieces may be used to represent them (I know HBG offers transport aircraft for most, if not all, countries).

I haven't playtested these rules yet, but if anyone here cares to try them out, I'd really appreciate your feedback. Do they give the game more balance? Swing the pendulum too far in the Allies' favor? Make little-to-no difference? All thoughts/criticism welcome.

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barney
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« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2018, 05:02:56 am »
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Hi Pripet

How much does the air transport cost ?
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SS
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« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2018, 05:19:37 am »
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While I've only been playing G40 for about a year, some patterns have emerged. The most notable of these is that the Japanese player sweeps through China quickly, taking control of the entire country and often plunging into the USSR in an attack coordinated with Germany. The result is almost always an Axis victory.

To give the Allies a chance, I've come up with a couple of rules to slow the Japanese advance through China: Red Dragon Brigades and Flying "The Hump."

RED DRAGON BRIGADES

To better reflect the nature of Chinese resistance to Japanese occupation, as well as the manpower and resources necessary to control a country as vast as China, the following rules apply:

1.   For any native Chinese territory (a territory with a Chinese roundel printed on it) controlled by the Japanese but unoccupied by a land or air unit (except AAA), the Chinese player rolls one die during the Japanese Convoy Disruption phase. On a roll of 3 or less, the territory reverts to Chinese control and one Chinese Infantry unit is immediately placed on that territory at no cost. The IPC chart is adjusted accordingly *before* Japan�s Collect Income phase.
2.   Red Dragon Brigades placed in territories containing Japanese AAA units cause the immediate destruction of said AAA units.

FLYING "THE HUMP"

Unable to move supplies through the USSR to China and with the Burma Road closed by the Japanese, the Allies began the extremely dangerous undertaking of flying supplies over the Himalayas from India to China. With this rule, the Allies may move infantry and artillery units to China via air transport, subject to the following restrictions:

1.   Allied powers not at war with Japan may not move into, over or through Chinese territories. Thus, infantry and artillery units (including artillery purchased by China) may not be flown into Chinese territories if no Allied powers are at war with Japan.
2.   Each air transport may carry a maximum of two infantry units or one artillery or AAA plus one infantry.
3.   Air transports have a range of six spaces.
4.   Movement occurs during the Noncombat Move phase.
5.   For each air transport attempting to cross the Hump, roll one die. On a roll of three or less, the crossing is successful and the aircraft may continue to its destination. On a roll of four or five, the flight is grounded by bad weather and must return to its territory of origin. On a roll of six, the flight crashes in the Himalayas and both the aircraft and cargo are destroyed.
6.   When the UK is at war with Japan and the Burma Road is closed, China may purchase artillery on its turn and place those units in India to await transport. Any Allied power at war with Japan may, on a subsequent turn, attempt to ferry the Chinese artillery from India to China, but only one Allied power per turn may make the attempt.
7.   Chinese artillery units in India may not take part in combat and are automatically destroyed if any Axis power captures India.

Note that "air transport" can be either notional (as with OOB rules for paratroopers) or pieces may be used to represent them (I know HBG offers transport aircraft for most, if not all, countries).

I haven't playtested these rules yet, but if anyone here cares to try them out, I'd really appreciate your feedback. Do they give the game more balance? Swing the pendulum too far in the Allies' favor? Make little-to-no difference? All thoughts/criticism welcome.



For your Red Dragon Brigades I like. Just like a Garrison rule some what. Japan leaves empty, can place 1 China partisan or 1 Light China Inf in the empty territory. This would force Japan to leave an inf for every territory. Now would that be to strong to take India ? But with a die roll its only a 50% chance that China gets an Inf and still gives Japan that inf to use else where and then come back later to deal with China. Play test will only tell.

As for your Air transport rule I don't see UK or US buying a 8  9? 10? icp plane just to fly in 2 ground. If China has to buy the 2 inf for allies to tranport then thats just a waste. They would go in China right away. As for that 1 Art I dont see the risk.
Why not just have a die roll like your China Inf and when the Burma Road is closed only have at the start of Chinas turn, have them roll a 1 d6 die and on a roll of 3 or less can place a free Art in China. This way China can spend that 4 icp extra towards an inf and maybe get that free Art per turn if Burma road is closed.









« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 05:24:14 am by SS » Logged
The Pripet Martian
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« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2018, 10:47:53 am »
+1

Hi Pripet

How much does the air transport cost ?


Greetings, barney. Honestly, I haven't given much thought to the cost of transport aircraft, as I haven't ordered the pieces yet. Before making the investment, I wanted to try this rule with notional air transport (again, like the OOB paratroopers rule). If air transport must be purchased, I think a 6 IPC cost per unit would be appropriate, as they should be a bit less expensive than naval transport, IMO.
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The Pripet Martian
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« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2018, 11:05:33 am »
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For your Red Dragon Brigades I like. Just like a Garrison rule some what. Japan leaves empty, can place 1 China partisan or 1 Light China Inf in the empty territory. This would force Japan to leave an inf for every territory. Now would that be to strong to take India ? But with a die roll its only a 50% chance that China gets an Inf and still gives Japan that inf to use else where and then come back later to deal with China. Play test will only tell.

As for your Air transport rule I don't see UK or US buying a 8  9? 10? icp plane just to fly in 2 ground. If China has to buy the 2 inf for allies to tranport then thats just a waste. They would go in China right away. As for that 1 Art I dont see the risk.
Why not just have a die roll like your China Inf and when the Burma Road is closed only have at the start of Chinas turn, have them roll a 1 d6 die and on a roll of 3 or less can place a free Art in China. This way China can spend that 4 icp extra towards an inf and maybe get that free Art per turn if Burma road is closed.











Greetings, SS. I might not have made it clear enough in my original post, but as I envision the "Hump" rule, China would only be able to purchase artillery (not infantry - as you alluded to, what would be the point?) and place it in India for future air transport. Allied forces, on the other hand, would have the ability to fly INF, ART and AAA into China once they're at war with Japan and the Burma Road is closed.

While I'm intrigued by your idea, making the ART free via a die roll eliminates any risk on China's part. Flying supplies over the Himalayas was an extremely risky proposition, an act born of desperation. I tried to strike a balance between giving China more of a chance against Japan and simulating the risk involved. I don't want China to become an impregnable fortress, but I do want to better reflect the difficulties Japan faced in attempting to subdue that sleeping giant.
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SS
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« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2018, 03:24:56 pm »
+1

Well your number 2 in the air transport says 1 art and 1 inf. So your saying 1 Allies inf and 1 China art I assume. Still your China Art has only a 50% of getting to China. As allies FEC UK would be better off building 2 inf than a airtranport plane.
China still be better off buying that 1 inf instead waiting for that art to show up a turn. Youd think if they rolled your 4-5 bad weather then at least China wouldnt lose 4 icps and wouldnt need to buy one next turn.

US UK did lend lease to China. Not a lot made it.
With my idea it gives China that LL piece free and also the flying tigers were a bad ass little group. They did shoot down around 275 Japan planes over Burma area. Then they joined the US navy later.

Theres like a bunch of different rules out there and being discussed but I never see any of them play tested.So ?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 03:29:14 pm by SS » Logged
Argothair
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« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2018, 03:29:01 pm »
+1

I very much like both what you're trying to do (stop China from being routinely and easily squished) and how you're trying to do it (partisans and air transport).

Do you know about the Chinese partisan rules in Balanced Mod 3.0? They hold that if Japan leaves a Japanese-controlled non-coastal Chinese land territory unoccupied by at least one Axis ground unit, then the Chinese get to place 1 infantry in each such territory for free at the start of their turn. This allows the Japanese to garrison a territory with a stack of air units, because the stack of air units will almost always kill off the one Chinese infantry before it can roll a 1, but you wouldn't want to, e.g., leave a strategic bomber alone on a Chinese territory, because then you're rolling at even odds against a much cheaper unit.

My concern about the way you've implemented your Red Dragon partisans is that Japan can just spread its air force out over any empty territories, one plane per territory, and then China will never get any partisans. It's one more nitpicky thing to remember, but given Japan's early surplus of planes, it's not really going to change the game. I think I prefer the Balanced Mod partisans to your rule, although I love the name "Red Dragon brigades."

As far as air transport, I prefer to have air transports cost *more* than sea transports, because flying through the air was harder, more novel, and more expensive in the 1940s. Even today, it usually costs much more to ship a package by air than by a cargo container ship -- the airplanes arrive faster, but they're much more expensive. As some of the other commenters point out, though, very few Allied players will buy a $9 cargo plane to ship 2 units per turn to China. America can afford to buy the planes, but they usually wouldn't have any infantry around to fill the planes with if Burma is still in Japanese hands. The UK Pacific forces can spare a couple of infantry to fill the planes, but they don't have $9 to spare to buy the planes in the first place. And as for China buying the artillery in India...I don't think it's a good buy for them, even if the air transport was free. Better to have, e.g., 8 infantry + 1 fighter on the spot where you need them than 4 infantry + 3 artillery + 1 fighter sitting in two different stacks that are hard to combine and slow to bring to bear against your enemy.

So maybe notional air transport is the way to go, here. Let the British send one British infantry, mech, or artillery per turn from India to any Chinese territory bordering the Himalayas. Don't bother to track the status of the plane. If you roll a 6, you lose the unit you tried to send. If you roll a 4 or 5, nothing happens. If you roll a 1, 2, or 3, the unit arrives in China and immediately becomes a Chinese unit. Britain has this ability regardless of whether the Burma road is open (otherwise you get a perverse incentive for Britain to let the Burma road close), but Britain permanently loses the ability if India is ever captured by the Axis.

That way you have the desired risk and investment (Britain is betting units it can't quite afford to lose from the UK Pacific theater), with a minimum of bookkeeping.
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SS
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« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2018, 03:35:51 pm »
+1

Aaahh sounds familiar.
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Narvik
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« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2018, 05:27:39 am »
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As far as air transport, I prefer to have air transports cost *more* than sea transports, because flying through the air was harder, more novel, and more expensive in the 1940s. Even today, it usually costs much more to ship a package by air than by a cargo container ship -- the airplanes arrive faster, but they're much more expensive.

I am not commenting on the house rule, just the historical background.

The reason they startet flying the Hump, was because the Burma road got closed when Japan reinforced FIC in april 42, and the Turkestan rail got closed in april 1941 due to the non aggression treaty with Russia. Now, the Hump was the only option. But it was expensive, more then 1400 transport aircraft would only bring in 650 000 tons of material from april 1942 to the end of war in late 1945. And at the loss of 600 aircrafts because of bad weather in the mountains. Not a profitable business.

Lets do the math and see if this house rules is close to any reality.

I dont know what a train cost, but they say that using a railway is very economical both to maintain and use. And the railway was already there, no high starting expenses.

But, I do have the numbers for aircrafts and ships.

A Dakota, or the later Commander, could carry between 28 and 40 troops, or 6000 tons cargo. Unit cost was less than $ 300 000.
A Liberty ship could carry 550 troops, or 1600 if modified into troopship, or 10 000 tons cargo. Unit cost was about $ 2.000.000.

They never carried troops over the Hump, just materials, so lets stay to that.
7 aircrafts cost the same as 1 ship, but only carry 42 tons. But, over the Hump they had to half that, because the planes needed to bring more fuel, and because of the height.

We know that 650 000 tons material was moved over the Hump over a 3 year time span.
65 Liberty ships could carry 650 000 tons from India to China in one week, at a cost of $ 130 billion plus fuel. And a cargo ship dont use much fuel.
108 000 transport aircrafts could carry 650 000 tons from India to china, in one day, at a cost of $ 32 000 billion. But they use a lot of expensive aircraft fuel too.
Of course, they never build so many aircrafts, but you see the point. Using aircrafts are lot more expensive than ships and trains. They also lost 600 aircrafts, at a cost of $ 180 billions. so my point is, the Hump was not good business, it was something you do when you are out of options.

If the house rules should model the real war, I figure the Burma road is free as long as its open, Tranny ships cost 7 IPC as OOB, and the Transport aircraft should cost like 15 IPC and carry one inf only. My 2 pence
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fairhousing
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« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2018, 06:12:37 am »
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Do you know about the Chinese partisan rules in Balanced Mod 3.0? They hold that if Japan leaves a Japanese-controlled non-coastal Chinese land territory unoccupied by at least one Axis ground unit, then the Chinese get to place 1 infantry in each such territory for free at the start of their turn. This allows the Japanese to garrison a territory with a stack of air units, because the stack of air units will almost always kill off the one Chinese infantry before it can roll a 1, but you wouldn't want to, e.g., leave a strategic bomber alone on a Chinese territory, because then you're rolling at even odds against a much cheaper unit.

I like the triplea version of "Chinese speed bumps" as mentioned above, not complicated and doesn't require anything extra.  it slows the Japanese roll through china enough.
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WoodyWanKenobi
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« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2018, 02:52:34 am »
+1

Great house rule!

We use an idea that came from General Hand Grenade's gripe about the whole mountain range and sheer expanse of that part of the world. 

1) No units at all can move between russia and china via that border of the 3 most western Chinese territories. 
2) Any unit can move through Mongolia between the 2 countries though, whilst still obeying the Mongolian rule.  This way if Japan wants to March into Moscow they need to tackle Mongolia or go round the south via India.  If Russia wants to help China they either come through any part of Mongolia or they come via Manchuria.
3) No other unit (apart from Russian) can move from Eastern Soviet soil to Western Soviet area, the roadblock is between Yakut SSR and Yenisey.  That gives Japan the chance to take 6 territories away from Russia before having to head through the Mongolian pass (Dzavhan or Olgiy) or they stop there.

Feel free to comment, but its working so far for us.

Woody

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« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2018, 04:16:24 am »
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Great house rule!

We use an idea that came from General Hand Grenade's gripe about the whole mountain range and sheer expanse of that part of the world. 

1) No units at all can move between russia and china via that border of the 3 most western Chinese territories. 
2) Any unit can move through Mongolia between the 2 countries though, whilst still obeying the Mongolian rule.  This way if Japan wants to March into Moscow they need to tackle Mongolia or go round the south via India.  If Russia wants to help China they either come through any part of Mongolia or they come via Manchuria.
3) No other unit (apart from Russian) can move from Eastern Soviet soil to Western Soviet area, the roadblock is between Yakut SSR and Yenisey.  That gives Japan the chance to take 6 territories away from Russia before having to head through the Mongolian pass (Dzavhan or Olgiy) or they stop there.

Feel free to comment, but its working so far for us.

Woody




Nice but the topic is about coming thru Burma. U could open a new topic on your suggestion with GHG rule.
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Caesar Seriona
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« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2018, 11:54:27 pm »
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I haven't worked my own version of The Hump yet but China is very weak in G40 but so is everyone else. What China should have should also be artillery, tanks, AA gun (UK controlled with an airfield) and the Flying Tigers should not be in the game at this time, they should have a fighter and tactical bomber from USSR. Also, as stupid as this sounds but China should have one destroyer.
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Flashman
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« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2018, 05:51:56 am »
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Chinese inf should be 0 in attack, forcing the Allies to bring in heavy units to make China a viable threat to Japan. The Japanese army could take anywhere in China it wanted, but most areas were not worth the cost of occupation.

However only a small fraction of the aid sent to China got used for the war effort due to the corruption and incompetence of the Chinese regime. American food aid was often sold to the Japanese.

Then, as now, the American government tended to overestimate the usefulness of local allies.

From 1942 the two Chinese factions just held what they had and prepared for the civil war they knew would come when America had defeated Japan.

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PainState
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« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2018, 08:03:17 am »
+2

IMO using real WWII rationale for China VS Japan does not compute in Axis and Allies because A&A does not use terrain. The #1 reason Japan did not take all of China in the real war was because of terrain. South West China is all mountains. North West China is dessert that is the second largest desert in the world. Also that desert is a nightmare scenario in winter. There is also this huge mountain chain coming up the west side of the China that is ignored.

SO

If you want to change up the status quo in China in respect to Japan I would offer this. Using game mechanics in the game.

You use Impassible territories.

You put up a Impassible territory between Khazashistan and Novobirisk. The only way Japan can get into Russia then is to invade Timguska.  So, you now force Japan to focus on the north which brings into play the Russia far east forces to resist them. It also forces Japan to diffuse their air power to the north. Which then brings up a choice Japan has to make. Go north with air power and leave India to build up and resist Japan.
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