Major Industrial in Manchuria?

[weddingsinger]

Can Japan build a major industrial complex in Manchuria (or Kiangsu)?

and, following that, *should* they?  I know there's a risk of the complex being destroyed if the territory is taken over, but, I really like being able to crank out mech and tanks for Japan on the mainland.  Manchuria already has easy access to plenty of defensive infantry and even AA.

Or perhaps you think having two minors, one each in Manchuria and Kiangsu gives you options, and both feed the same seazone, if you need navy there...

[Caesar Seriona]

No, those are Chinese territories, again if whoever reads this are you're part of the company that makes the rules for this game, will you please if there ever is a third generation G40, make those Chinese occupied territories just Chinese colors and force Japan to put markers on them.

The only major Japan can make is Korea.

[simon33]

I don't think even a minor in Manchuria is ideal. You need to garrison a lot of troops there to protect against a Soviet invasion, unless you attack first and trigger Mongolia. Also, it's a very long way away from India where the real prize is.

Build one of your ICs on French Indo China, I also like Shantung.

[Caesar Seriona]

Yeah, a minor on Manchuria tells me one of two things: either you're preparing to invade Mongolia or you're now desperate to hold back China. If invading USSR is your idea, either support it with the navy off Japan or build a major on Korea. Japanese factories should be placed in southern China or FIC.

[taamvan]

If Japan wants bases early, there are only 3 places.   3 more emerge (HK, FIC, MALAYA) that are much better positioned but these produce first units J4 if you J2, not J2 regardless.

If you don't have at least 1 land factory, and especially if you J1 and pull troops off the mainland, China can easily go out of control.  A few games ago, I bought 1 J1 and another one on J2 or J3 and China still blasted me.

The Manchurian one is valid from game start because you're going to need to economize, you can't really churn out 3 tanks x 2-3 factories for many turns and still bulk your fleet.    So, the Manchuria factory is building things like infantry and artillery, not tanks, and in G40, you will need these small units on offense or defense if the USSR stuck around.

[weddingsinger]

Of you're wondering the context, I had a game where Russia left his stack of infantry in Amur, so J1 I switched to a 'kill Russia first' and a major in Manchuria would make sense.

In normal play, I'm often  J3 DOW guy and fond of two minors on J1, to get moving, and have the southern factory do inf or art, and Manchuria do tanks.  Handy for India or China.

So... Is the official rule 'No'?  The book says original territories, so I'm inclined to say it's allowed...

[P@nther]

So... Is the official rule 'No'?  The book says original territories, so I'm inclined to say it's allowed...

This is what the rulebook says:

Chinese territories on the game board
have a Nationalist Chinese emblem on them. Some of these
territories begin the game already under Japanese control.
They still are considered Chinese territories for purposes of
original ownership.

So Japan cannot build a Major IC in Manchuria.

[Navymule]

The only territory available to Japan to construct a Major IC would be Korea.  Any others would need to be a minor.

[PainState]

Here is the main issue I have with a MIC in Korea.

If we ignore its location, which is sub optimal for India and only really threatens USSR and northern China.

The real issue is can you actually use it to its full potential?

Lets say you have a MIC in Korea a minor IC in Shanghai and look at building a minor in Hong Kong or Singapore. Now Japan has 3 factories that could produce up to 16 units. That is a lot of production that will out strip your IPC production every turn. It is not possible for Japan to build 16 units a turn on the main land once USA starts their push into the Pacific.

3 minors can really stretch out the IPC for Japan even if they have the money islands and so forth. 3 minors is a minimum of 27 IPC to produce 9 INF on the mainland. If you add tanks/mechs/art it increases the cost per turn to produce 9 units and then you find Japan is spending 50+% of its income on land units and they get stretched out with their Navy as they cannot produce enough naval units to replace their losses. Once Japan starts losing its air force then the entire situation becomes un tenable to maintain.

You have to much production and not enough IPC to replace land units, air units and naval units.

[PainState]

The other option Japan has it this.

You build 5 TRS that only have one purpose, to shuttle units onto the main land.

SO you spend 35 IPC for the TRS instead of the 36 for the 3 factories. Now the TRS have the advantage of mobility. Also Shangai is a 1 turn shuck from Japan so in theory you could drop 10 units a turn from Japan onto the mainland.

Now the drawback of the plan is TRS can be sunk and the Factories cannot.

[Caesar Seriona]

Major on Korea can be useful against India if you do something crazy like go for norther China and USSR and then proceed to take a large stack against the south while reinforcing from the sea or go crazy and come down for USSR into the Middle East can invade India from the west.

[WILD BILL]

I like to do J1 so I can build minor ICs on FIC and Kwangtung on J2. I generally buy 3 transports on the first turn to get to the $ islands/transport troops to Asia. Build some inf art J3 in Asia if needed, then build mostly mech+tanks......so I can push into China/India. Sometimes I will build a 3rd minor IC on Malaya, but like Pain pointed out it can be problematic to keep up production on 3 minors in Asia.

Hong Kong and Malaya come with a naval base, and I like to have the option to build ships down there as Japan. If you also build a naval base for sz 36 (FIC) you have multiple places to build subs/dds that can hit say a US held Caroline's, or invade Australia. Mid game its all cat and mouse, and as Japan those minors on the coast w/naval base help you build a better mouse trap.