Russia: Aggressive or Defensive turns 1-4 (w/ Bid of +/- 24 IP for Axis)

@cernel said in Playing in 2017 still, General Strategy/Discussion:

That submarine is making a battle with an average +10 value swing there (140% the value of the attacking force!), which is more than sending it to kill the lone British transport

Actually, sending the German submarine which is in the North Atlantic to kill the transport next to Eastern Canada (average +7) instead of taking the shot against the 1 cruiser and 2 transports next to Eastern United States (average +10) is some less than a -3 difference since, if using it to kill the British transport, then nothing can kill the submarine on the same round, whereas the 50% chance of the submarine surviving next to Eastern United States implies the ability for the Americans to make a battle with 1 destroyer, 1 fighter and 1 bomber (or even more units) against 1 submarine, which is an about +4.4 value swing, to be reduced to +2.2 on the account that the submarine will be there only 50% of the times. So that covers at least most (2.2/3) of the difference between the two options the submarine has if you actually think that having that submarine alive next to Eastern Canada at the start of the second German turn is actually worth its value or more. Opinions?

In any case, the battle next to Eastern United States is certainly a good option which your opponent may take and, in this case, it will be a 50/50 on either:

Germany having 1 less submarine for nothing. America having 1 less cruiser, 2 less transports and having to invest units to kill 1 German submarine, with slightly more than a 1/6 chance also to lose 1 destroyer in the process.

@Hobbes:

@stebobibo:

Can you buy and deploy units on the first turn? Because in the rules it says you collect income at the end of each turn, therefore you would have no IPCs to spend on your first turn. If you do start with IPCs and can buy on the first turn, how many IPCs do you start with? Is it the number printed on the set-up cards? Or would it depend on the territories you have under your control at the start of your first turn? Example, USSR on his turn has taken some German territories worth 4 IPCs in total. Would Germany therefore start with 40-4=36 IPCs?

Germany (and the others) start with the money printed on the setup charts. At the end of its turn (after it places the units it purchased with its starting money) it receives income based on the number of territories it controls and their value. So, if G has 36 worth of territories, it will receive 36 IPC that can be used on beginning of its next turn to buy more units.

Actually, Germany starts with 41 IPCs instead of 40; the UK with 31 IPCs instead of 30.

These inaccuracies really bother me because ANYONE involved in the production of this game could have caught them before printing… but didn’t take the time to. Really careless work, and misleading for new players.

In fact, the rulebook as a whole seems largely geared towards an existing player base, rather than carefully explaining gameplay in a methodical fashion to beginners. Things could easily be laid out in a much more logical and intuitive fashion; once again, Wizards misses a trick.

@Bunnies:

@BigPapaSmurf:

Send 5 inf from Kar/Arch, 1 Artillery and two fighters to West russia and stack everything else in Cauc. Leave one Inf in Lenningrad and do your standard moves on the east end.

Don’t you run into Germany taking Karelia and West Russia, and establishing a strong center position from which Russia cannot reclaim Karelia income?

Bunnies is correct. G takes West Russia with units from BR/Ukr. Russia can retake West Russia but will only earn 27 IPC, not being able to contest Belorussia and Karelia. Germany meanwhile can build 5 inf, 5 arm on G1 and put some serious pressure to prevent Russia from stacking West Russia on turn 2.

The main goal of the Ukr attack is IMHO to get the fighter,

Cutting most of Germany’s ability to attack Caucasus is another big big plus.  If Russia lucks out on the Ukraine attack, Germany may either risk fighters on G1 on other targets to send a fighter to Ukraine, or may send valuable tanks to reclaim Ukraine.  Or if Russia lucks out at Ukraine, Russia may retreat to Caucasus to preserve its tanks/artillery.

As equally as important as the fighter is to protect the Russian units on West Russia from being destroyed on G1. If you lose them, you lose any chance of contesting Karelia/Belorussia. Germany may also stack Ukraine like you mentioned, cutting off 3 IPC to Russia (plus the 2 from Belorussia) and both sides get into a war of positions that doesn’t favor Russia (i.e. the Allies better get quickly to help).

@Hobbes:

@special:

next turn the W.Russia stack should retreat, no matter what Germany does (but yes, Karelia is about their best choice).

As long as Germany controls Eastern Europe, Russia should keep a stack on West Russia as long as possible. With it, it can trade 7 IPC worth of territories with the Germans and keep their advance in check. If it pulls out the stack then Russia is effectively allowing a ton of IPCs to the Germans: Karelia, Belorussia, Ukraine, West Russia.

true, but if Germany puts enough troops in position to defeat the W.Russian army (like in your example, + air force + units from other territories that probably can reach W.Russia), i am inklined to pull back (or turn south, depending on the situation).
Against a German player that will take W.Russia with the minimal amount of units, i will take W.Russia back the next turn with some inf + fighters. I know that is a game that won’t last long in Spring 42.
Call me a semi-agressive Russian ;)

that said, consulting the map i notice that i usually take Belarus and ukraine while keeping a stack in W.Russia, backed up by Caucasus and Russia. Clearly i don’t know this map by heart (yet). So i guess i was  agreeing with you, heh. :D sorry for that
Keeping W.Russia (and trade Ukraine, Belarus or even Karelia when possible).

edit: i do usually retreat my tanks, though

Nice first post.  Good looking custom avvie, pix, all that stuff.

Hello i was curious about how Industrial Complexes work?  Well they’re complexes, so it’s complicated.  But generally I just load them into a small slingshot.  That tends to work the best.  Some people use airguns, but then you have to worry about cat pee.  Don’t ask.  Just trust me on this. I mean can you spawn unlimited ammount of IPC’s? Each player starts with a number of IPCs based on the territory they control.  The number of IPCs a country STARTS with is listed in the upper right hand corner of the setup card.  Russia gets 24 starting IPCs, Germany 40, UK 30, Japan 30, US 42.And also how does IPC’s work? I bought the game for Christmas and had some of the buddies come over and well we have put hours of time to get everything right and were still struggling with the IPC’s? and the Industial Complexes and how they work?  At the beginning of your turn, you have a number of IPCs in your country’s “bank”.  You purchase as many units as you like, so long as you have IPCs.  The cost of the units can be found in the lower right hand corner of your game board.  For example, infantry cost 3 IPCs, tanks cost 5 IPCs.

so basic things like…

1. How many units can spawn on a complex? (saying the Complex is in Moscow which = 8 )  A complex on Moscow can normally produce 8 units a turn, never more than that.  A complex on Caucasus can normally produce 4 units a turn, never more than that.  If your industrial complex has been damaged by enemy industrial complex bombing, your industrial complex will not be able to produce as many units as normal.  The rules for industrial bombing are on page 14 of the rulebook.  Damage on an industrial complex stays until the damage is repaired. 
2. IPC’s are they just the #'s on the territories? No.  For example, say Russia starts a turn with 24 IPCs (Industrial Production Certificates) and purchases 4 tanks costing 20 IPCs.  It then has 4 IPCs left that it has not spent.  Say at the end of the turn Russia controls territories that produce a combined value of 28 Industrial Production Certificates.  (The territories PRODUCE IPCs, but they are NOT THEMSELVES IPCs).  Russia will then collect 28 IPCs and have a total of 32 IPCs, even though it only controls territories that produce 28 IPCs worth.  If Germany takes some of those territories from Russia later, or if UK recaptures that territory from Germany, makes no difference to the IPCs the Russian player holds.  Once the Russian player holds the IPCs, they don’t change, until the Russian player either uses those IPCs to repair industrial complexes or produce units. 
3. I love Russia and want to dominate but… how can i over come both germany and japan?! (its like a sandwich) There’s a few ways, have fun with it.  Browse the forums, ask questions.  Since most of the game is about answering this very question, and since it’s a fairly complex game that involves a lot of chance, it doesn’t have a simple answer I can give in a short post.  I’m not sure I even know the answer.
4. How many complexes can be bought in total? (like you can only buy whats there? or more?) You’re probably asking because you’re concerned about strategy limitations, such as when trying to control the number of houses on properties in Monopoly, to prevent other players from accessing hotels.  This much I can say - you get “enough” industrial complexes with the game.  (Unlike chips.)  Industrial complexes are expensive and take a while to get any use out of; if you build a lot, your opponent will just beat you up and take your territories.  So you generally build just a couple, if any.  (If the Allies are strong in Europe, an industrial complex usually goes up in Western Europe and/or Norway. If the Allies are strong in the Pacific, an industrial complex often goes up in Borneo, or one of the other high IPC islands.  Japan often builds one in French Indochina and either India or Kwangtung.  Germany sometimes (rarely) puts one in Ukraine. In some games, UK puts one in India, Anglo-Egypt Sudan, Union of South Africa, Australia, or even two of those.  But these are far from common.  Usually you only build industrial complexes if you’re extremely strong, or if you’re extremely weak and you have time to build the industrial complex (takes a turn) and mobilize units (takes another turn) before your opponent runs up to you, beats you up, and takes your territory and industrial complex away.  A good example is India, UK is pretty weak there and finds it hard to get forces there, but it can build an industrial complex to put new units there immediately.  Japan starts weak in the area, so UK has some time to reinforce.  (Eventually, though, if the Japan player is good, India falls, and UK has given up 15 IPCs for an industrial complex that Japan uses.  It’s like giving up 15 IPCs worth of units, and giving your opponent 15 IPCs to build an industrial complex with.  Bad.)
5. Russia what Navy do they have? and how can i get more IPC’s? when Germany get more then me and keeps bringing in new units while im just trying to stay alive. Then i have Japan coming from behind but i can’t do anything because im focused on Germany i need HELP! xDRussia has one submarine, as listed on the setup card.  This is not a mistake.

P.S. Also just curious who gets the red dice and who would get the black dice? Naturally, redheads get the red dice, and brunettes get the black dice.  If there is any question of who should get what color, this is usually easily answered, so long as the questionee is not of a prudish nature.  Bald people and blonde people can use whichever they like.

any helpful LINKS and such that would clear this up would help too!  afro  I think this is pretty much as helpful a forum as there is out there.  I haven’t found any better.

–

So you want help for Russia do you?

I’ll help you.  Help you DIE!  (Simpsons reference)

Yeah, well, maybe this is good advice, maybe not.  Try it.

First tip - Allies need to work together.  You can be the best Russian player in the world, and if your UK and US allies are bad, you’re gonna go down.  That’s all there is to it.  It’s best to just accept this as true.

Second tip - pretty much forget the east.  The territories in the east are of low value.  Look at all those 1’s.  Do you really want to die for a bunch of 1’s?  Look to the west.  See all those 2’s and 3’s?  Go west, young man.  Go west.

Third tip - for your first turn (I’ll call this “R1” for Russia’s 1st Turn - “J3” would be Japan’s 3rd Turn, US7 would be US’s 7th Turn . . . - build 4 tanks and 1 artillery, and send 2 fighters and the 3 infantry from Karelia to hit Belorussia, and everything else in range to hit West Russia.  You will win at West Russia unless God hates you.  You will probably win at Belorussia, but be careful.  If your fighters are in danger, run away.  Russian fighters are extremely valuable for trading territory, and very expensive, you can’t really afford more.  For noncombat, move everything in the east towards the west as quickly as possible (2 infantry from Kazakh move to Caucasus, not Moscow, remember “west”, and move the Russian sub to join the UK battleship and transport.  Land fighters in Moscow.  Move the antiaircraft gun from Caucasus to West Russia.)

On Germany’s turn, Germany may attack West Russia, but you will win.  Germany may industrial bomb Caucasus, but you’re about to have a huge income, and there are better targets Germany could have hit with that bomber anyways, so be thankful.  Russia may blitz a tank to Archangel.  That’s fine.  You would have lost Karelia anyways, so all Germany really did was gain a 2 IPC territory with that tank.

On R2, produce 5 infantry 1 artillery 1 tank - basically at least 1 tank, lots of infantry, and a couple of artillery.  Kill the 5 IPC tank; you’ve got plenty of power to spare.  The tank gets a 50/50 chance to kill a 3 IPC infantry.  If it does kill your infantry, Germany broke even on the IPC trade, except for the fact that Germany just wasted a forward placed tank for stuff that’s near the heart of your territory, where you can quickly and easily replace units.  If Germany doesn’t hit, Germany just traded a 5 IPC unit for a 2 IPC territory and a extremely slight positional advantage.  If you have a load of tanks, you just reposition them next turn and Germany basically just looks stupid.

You need a lot of infantry as Russia, because although tanks are strong and mobile, they are expensive.  If you can lose a 3 IPC infantry instead of a 5 IPC tank, it’s much better for you.  Since you start with a load of infantry, you move the tanks from West Russia along with your R1 build of 4 tanks to some forward territory.  You can use fighters and infantry to trade weakly held territory.

From there on, keep moving infantry and tanks up, until Germany starts pushing back.  Then do a fighting retreat.

If you see a load of enemy units on a territory, think how many casualties you will take attacking that territory before you can claim the territory.  If you think your units will all die before you can take the territory, don’t attack it.  If you think you can take the territory, think about what units the enemy has that can retake the territory.  If the enemy can retake the territory and kill a lot of valuable units, then don’t move all your units in. Either retreat, or send enough units to probably kill all enemy units with a couple extra for safety - if the enemy responds in force, your reserves might be able to wipe him/her out.

In the meantime, UK and US should be building TRANSPORTS and CARRIERS, and a couple DESTROYERS and maybe a couple SUBMARINES to act as cannon fodder.  UK and US need to get ground units through the Atlantic in to help Russia, or Russia is toast.  If UK and US do things like build a lot of battleships or fighters or bombers, but don’t build any ships at all for a few turns, you’re probably going to die because your allies aren’t very skilled at playing the game.

It’s OK if UK/US go to Africa before they reach Europe.  But if they built no ships and no transports in the Atlantic after UK2/US2, that’s a bad, bad sign.  You might see the US building fleet in the Pacific while UK works in the Atlantic; that’s OK.  But you should see transports being built.  US should have at least 3 by US2, UK should have at least 3 by UK3.  Often they should have more, earlier, although skilled Axis players can take preventative measures.

Of course, it is not diplomatic or even in most cultures polite to point out that your allies don’t know what they’re doing, even if they are ignorant slobs.  How you get them to produce transports is up to you.  Don’t forget they need escorts too, and a strong fleet of escorts at that.  Transports are expensive, and useless in combat other than to transport units.  If there’s a fleet with a lot of transports that gets wiped out, first the value of all the escort fleet was lost.  Second, the value of all the transports was lost.  Usually if an Allied fleet gets wiped out, that’s a blow the Allies will not recover from.

Details on particular strategies - well, go ahead and ask in a thread titled “Allied Strategies”; check out some of the articles in the article forum.  But watch out for the articles I write; I often leave out stuff that people would think important.

Like how?

Me:  Wouldja go to the store and pick up some donuts?
Buddy:  Isn’t your car in the shop?
Me:  Yeah, I got a replacement car, keys in the ignition outside
Buddy:  Woah, a Shelby Cobra?!
Me:  Yeah, I just stole it.
Buddy:  There’s a bunch of cops right outside.
Me:  Why didn’t you SAY something?

So you can see, REALLY, it’s OTHER people that leave out the important stuff.  But you’d be surprised how they say it’s me that doesn’t tell them what’s important!  :roll:  But I just smile and take it all in stride, because you know everyone’s got their own individual style, and you don’t have music unless you have Melody AND Harmony.  :lol:  Ask Hef if you don’t believe me.  But anyways, sometimes, the best thing is to just get along.  Which, when playing a multi-player game of Axis and Allies, or even with just a single opponent, is always good to remember.  Especially if you owe the people you’re playing with a lot of money and your chainsaw wasn’t hanging in its usual spot on the wall when you got home.

I know you want to play, so don’t be a wanna-be-player!

Be a PLAYER!  :mrgreen:

in 1 game, the americans tried to take tokyo twice but failed

good deal, that’s the way we played it, but the way the printing actually worked out overlapping it coulda helped the German defense of the Med, as would have that UK sz3 thing to protect Karelia.
thanks Krieg.