Submarine movement through Danish Straits?

No, they cannot.  Gibraltar is the only exception.  There is a comical “diplomatic” interaction here; you may ASK for permission to pass the straights, but you are asking your enemy and they should say no.

There would be no really good reason ever to give permission, but this happened in our last game and the Russian sub in the Baltic went into the North Sea.  But then again, Paris didn’t fall until G2 either (I was Japan).  The only logical reason to permit the Russian Sub to depart through the straights would be to better be able to kill it later, I don’t think that’s what happened (I think both Russian subs camped on/near the NO square)>

I had an experience which actually leads me to think it might be helpful to let the Russian sub escape.

If you don’t plan to build many German ships and you want to keep a few transports safe for landings on Leningrad, shucking in the Baltic, or counter-attacks to Norway, then in fact it might make sense to let the Russia sub escape out of the Baltic. Last time I played a table top game, a Russia sub rolled a 1 on defense! (This actually occurred in SZ125; not same place, but you get the concept). I was forced to decide between weakening the entire German Navy by damaging the carrier, which would mean less defense because no fighters would be there, or lose the German destroyer. To maintain enough defensive threat to the UK player, I had to lose the destroyer. Losing that 8 IPC unit at that moment really hurt my ability to project a defensive threat and hang out in SZ112. If I damaged the carrier, my units might have been attacked and then all would have been lost. I could see a situation in the Baltic happening where a one two punch sinks a small German Navy whose purpose only works when tucked up inside the Baltic.

I suppose so Mr. Ichabod, but because there are unknowns on the plus side, and the Russian player has to want to attempt it, its an obscure move.

the bunt moves that are worth doing almost every time is moving the Cruiser to SZ 114, that way they cannot add an amphibious element to open the Leningrad attack because they cannot pass through that SZ during the combat move.

They can also not load the transports in a hostile SZ so if you move it to SZ 113 or wherever the german transports are (pass at peace) I believe that they cannot load their transports with troops from Germany or WGermany because they just declared war on you in order to attack the cruiser/the rest of Russia.  They can only load from Poland as they pass by, though the Cruiser should never be permitted to leave because it could foil the same load in SZ 112.

the subs don’t block movement, and letting them out can permit Russia to convoy Normandy or Norway so it seems like a terrible move…but don’t ask me I didn’t make it

Taamvan,

No Russian player has ever asked me if his sub could exit the Baltic…but if asked, I probably would say no…I think I was just venting after the table top game where the guy rolled a 1 and killed my destroyer.  The game where my fleet was outside the Baltic, I was going for a defensive fleet that had enough meat to project a threat. But that one Russian sub really snubbed the buildup of the fleet. I don’t want extra Russian subs out convoying Germany or going into the Med to convoy Italy.

But sometimes I play with just enough boats in the Baltic + a scramble to protect enough transports to kill a Norway invasion as all other IPCs are invested in ground for defense, mobile for the march into Russia, and air for whatever purpose. After that roll of a 1, I could see the Russian sub doing that to me followed by an Allied Strategic Bombing attack to finish off a small Baltic fleet which could overcome a German scramble.

I may have misunderstood another aspect of your message response, so please don’t take my response wrong.

Did you mean that the Russian Cruiser and sub could theoretically be in SZ113 while Germany and Russia were at peace to prevent Germany from loading transports in SZ113 when wanting to declare war on Russia? Or did you mean just the Russian sub in SZ113?

The Russian sub doesn’t prevent the loading of transports of course (page 13 of the Europe rule book).

I would think that a 1939 start date where Denmark is neutral (pro allies) the Germans or the allies wouldn’t be allowed to move any ships through the Danish straight (no belligerents). I think you would treat it like the Turkish Straights, and while Turkey is neutral neither side can move ships though it. Same for the Panama canal, while the US is neutral I don’t think anyone but the US is allowed to pass.

Actually you could make the case that the Germans would be able to move freely if Denmark was neutral or allied because of the Kiel Canal (another thing that YoungGrasshooper could do in his map re-make)

Edit: I have changed my stance on this because the Danish straights were international waters allowing both sides passage (see later)

The movement restriction is, as I understand it, because part of the strait is extremely shallow in reality. I assume the idea is that shore fortifications can easily destroy any ship attempting to pass through without permission.

Marsh

If you made it pro allies in your 1939, if the allies control currently control it it, I would allow the Allies through.  If they don’t, then neither side can pass (because it is still neutral and you cannot pass, like Turkey).

If on the other hand, you made it a Friendly Territory from game start (like the money islands), I would allow the Allies through but not the Axis, until the Axis take it over, and then the Axis could pass, but not Allies.

If you let the subs out, you should let them in too.  A well placed net is probably a good idea, how many IPCs should a giant metal net cost?

I disagree with this. The subs are in reality extremely shallow in part. Control of Denmark is required because of that.

Marsh

All bodies of water in a wargame are the same depth;  zero.  They are two dimensional, not 3.  The only thing that is similar about them and real oceans is that they are blue and the color of blue is probably not accurate and up for debate.

After some reading I found that the Copenhagen Convention of 1857 named the Danish Straights an International Waterway free to all military and commercial shipping. This is not the case for the Turkish Straights which were directly controlled by Turkey.

In light of that I have changed my stance and believe that while Denmark is neutral (doesn’t matter if pro axis/allies as far as game terms) warships from either side should be able to pass through the straight until the Germans (or allies) take it. Once Denmark is activated then passage of the straight is controlled by that power.

Also found that Churchill had a plan (Operation Catherine) to put a large surface fleet into the Baltic in the spring of 1940 to disrupt trade between Germany, Russia, Sweden (iron ore) etc…but the plan was shelved.

Hitler invaded Denmark and Norway for control of this waterway to keep the allies out of the Baltic, and gain bases along the Norwegian coastline. This would insure trade, and better access to the North Sea (sub warfare and merchant raiding).