Bismarck vs Missouri

The Missouri had superior fire control system but i think the Bismarck would take more punishment. Crew edge goes to Bismarck.

Missouri should prevail.

why do you give the crew advantage to the Bismarck?

Missouri can deliver heavier projectiles and more of them. her secondary 5" gun armament can get off 150 rpm. that alone is based off averages from around the US fleet. Missouri is faster, has better armor and maneuverability. her crew is much more experience due to them serving for a longer period of time compared to the Bismarck’s. the Missouri was fighting the Japanese, who IMO, are a much tougher fight than the British (no offense to all of the British player/members on here). US fire control is so much better than the German equivalent.  so i feel like the Bismarck would try and put up a fight, but it would be comparatively one sided towards the USS Missouri.

Morning Worsham. Sad for me to say, but I think the Bismarck would stand little chance against the more modern Missouri.
I have just looked at armour strengths and the Missouri has thicker armour everywhere except the belt(which would matter least, I think).
Was nice to look at pictures of the Bismarck again, so thank you for the question.

why do you give the crew advantage to the Bismarck?

Admiral Lütjens and the fact that the Bismarck crew was hand picked from the best in the Kreigsmarine.

Lutjens made several critical mistakes when he was commanding the Bismarck. And I’m what ways were the crew  of the Bismarck better than the Missouri

It was Germany’s first real operation for using surface raiders with a real Battleship ( Not Graf Spee)

Mistakes will be made, plus the British got a lucky shot on her propeller. Otherwise, it was a great victory.

Of course, he should have taken out Prince of Whales.

Besides i said Missouri would win

I think so. The Germans in this case tried to bite off more than they could chew. Didn’t realize that basically the entire UK navy was looking to sink them.

sorry if it seemed if i was calling you out. i was just curious to see what you knew about German surface operations. i love talking about this kinda stuff. but i stand by what i said. i don’t think the German crew gets the advantage

depending on how much damage they sustained, i think the Germans might have tried to sail to France instead of Norway. at that point, they felt like they just defeated the best the royal navy had to offer, their “best”/most prized ship, and one of their newest battleships.

Throughout history one of the most consistent things about naval battles is that they are regularly dicey.

Good weather/Bad weather, a lucky hit, and open tube, a bad detonator, a forgotten mine, whatever the cause may be death is always very near.

With the weapons of WWII being what they were, it doesn’t surprise me that some commanders were so cautious.  More was likely to go wrong, than likely to go right.  And the side with the less wrongs wins.

My choice is the Bismarck.

@ABWorsham:

What was the cause of the high number of German ‘dud’ shells during the war?

My son visited the Battleship Texas and on display was an 9.4" dud shell fired by the Hamburg Battery at Cherbourg, this shell entered the battleship without explosion.

The Prince of Whales had, I believe, five unexploded shell enter the ship.

Sabotage! in alot of those cases, it might have been that the Prisoners and Jews sabotaged the shells who worked in very hard labor for the Wehrmacht. If it came out that the shells were sabotaged, the labors were exterminatley punished and then exchanged. But like in cases of the Submarines ,it did not matter so much, because most of the time it couldn’t be reported.

You joker!
You know Worsham is very good at doing very close match ups. Even I, with my limited naval knowledge, knew he meant the WW2 one. Not the Star Trek version.

Did that modern Missouri have its 16" guns removed(or just the ammo for them)?Can’t see how much use those big guns would have  been with all that modern tech on board.

Must resist … chiming  … in …

Nope, can’t resist.  I too big a naval buff.

Assuming that the battle happened soon after Missouri was commissioned and that the Bismarck was still around at that time (summer 1944).  Some assumptions would have to be made.  Bismarck would undoubtably be refitted the same as Tirpitz by this time, so their radar and AA would be upgraded.

1. Familiarity with ship.

The German crew would not have seen much action by this time, and likely is lurking in fjiords along with Tirpitz.  But the crew would still have 3 years of experience with their ship, compared with the crew of the Missouri who are getting used to a new ship.  I believe that the Americans did try to lessen this by transfering personnel from the other fast battleships to Missouri that are already familiar with the ship’s systems, but I am assuming here.

Advantage Bismarck

2. Conditions of battle.

If the battle occurs in the Arctic, then choppy sea conditions will be expected.  And if this encounter happens shortly after Missouri’s commisioning, then the battle is happening in the summer when it is daylight 24 hours around the clock, so no night battle.
The Bismarck will have been operating in these conditions for at least a couple of years, while the Missouri will be a newcomer.

Advantage Bismarck

3. Battle experience.

In terms of battleship to battleship experience, the crew of the Bismarck will have by this time successful surface raiding experience in which some engagement with enemy capital ships occurred.  Hood and Prince of Wales for sure.  Had Bismarck survived, then I assume that Raeder would have had Bismarck go on at least 1 more Atlantic raid before the inevitable transfer to Norway.
The Missouri’ crew will be mostly fresh, but the senior officers will have come from other ships.  Only relevant capital ship vs capital ship experience would be Guadalcanal, which was a night action using radar.  Most experience would be as escorts to aircraft carriers providing AA cover.

Advantage Bismarck

4. Speed

Missouri is 2 - 3 knots faster than the Bismarck.  This means that the Missouri will more than likely be able to choose at what range the exchange of fire will be.

Advantage Missouri

5. Ordanance

Missouri fires a heavier shell, and has 9 guns to Bismarck’s 8.  Missouri can also fire more shells in a minute than Bismarck.  Secondary armament is not considered, as neither from either ship will penetrate armour of the other.

Advantage Missouri

6. Fire control.

Bismarck had better optics while Missouri had short wavelength radar.  Radar trumps optics.  In the Arctic in choppy seas and continual rain squalls, radar would  give an edge.

Advantage Missouri

7. Armour

Overall, the Bismarck had thinner armour except in the belt.  This means that he Bismarck is more vulnerable to plunging fire than Missouri at long ranges.  The belt would be important only at close range, and since Missouri was faster, Bismarck would not be able to close the range.  Bismarck’s deck armour does not protect ship’s communication, so that is exposed too.  Missouri is also vulnerable to plunging fire from Bismarck, however.  But coupled with heavier shells, greater rate of fire and better fire control at long range, Bismarck is in more danger.

Advantage Missouri

Conclusion:

It really all boils down to who gets in the first good shot.  Which ship has a better chance of landing that lucky shot?  Missouri does, as she dictates the range of the battle and has better chances of hitting Bismarck at these long ranges.  The conditions of the Arctic help the Bismarck, as Missouri will need to be closer to Bismarck to land successful hits in the crappy conditions, though.

Winner is Missouri.

I think that makes sense. Thank you for your thoughts.
Economically, it cannot make sense to scrap the last Battleships(jobs wise).

I suppose you know  what a mess we are in with our Carrier capability and how we could be without a  working one until 2020.

Very nice write up Jim.
Enjoyed it. Thank you.

As for the future of battleships: Rail guns.

@wittmann:

Very nice write up Jim.
Enjoyed it. Thank you.

You’re welcome. I love reading and familiarizing myself with WWII battleships.