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Author Topic: Face-to-Face tournament rules  (Read 5939 times)
djensen
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« on: May 10, 2013, 04:57:39 pm »

This thread is only for those of you who have played at least 3 face-to-face games for at least 6 hours each. You're certainly willing to chime in otherwise but I would like to keep the signal to noise ratio high, meaning lot's of signal, no noise.

What are your thoughts on face-to-face tournament rules?

Keep in mind the following:

- You only have 6 hours to play.
- Play starts with the game already set up and ready to go.
- Just because the Central Powers take Moscow doesn't mean the game is over.
- What are the victory conditions at the end of 6 hours?
- Face to face tournament play is very different. You're playing to win in a condensed period of time with different or additional victory conditions. You do not have all day to compete a game.
- Except for victory conditions, the rest of the rules and setup should remain the same.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 02:41:26 pm by djensen » Logged
djensen
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« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2013, 05:04:25 pm »

Also, the community generally feels that the game (to the end) favors one side, right? In tournament play, it might favor the other side (because the victory rules can and will be different).
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WILD BILL
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« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2013, 08:27:36 am »

DJ, we have played about 8 games (maybe 9?). Most went 6+ hours, but I have to say the first few were partials, and went pretty slow just learning the new game (4-5 rounders). Some of those games were spent exploring the optional Russian Revolution Rules (which have officially been changed, and are much better then OOB). I'm not sure if your tournaments will be using this optional rule. IN our experience the CP are a heavy underdog due mostly to the slow movement of ground units coming from their capitals (only sniffing a win once), and the allied navy is also over whelming OOB IMO.

If you are going to do OOB for the most part, the CP are going to have a tough time IMO. They will need some help (especially w/movement). Maybe you are considering an IPC count (expand your empire) as a victory condition for either side at the end of play, that could get the CP a win. Larry is currently looking at some options for movement that could work very well in a FTF tourney (speeding things up, and getting further into the games). I know these aren't yet well tested, and may not be ready for this years tourneys, but you should probably keep an eye on these movement options for future reference if nothing else (or get with Larry to see how things are progressing).

Some of the things Larry is looking at (as optional play)

1) The French navy in particular seems oversize (Larry has acknowledged so), and I think he is considering a change to the French sz15 Atlantic fleet, leaving it with only a cruiser at set-up (swapping BB for cruiser and removing the transport). This alone will help the CP in a 6 hour game IMO, giving the French fewer options and the allies not able to dominate the Atlantic as easy even when the UK navy is sunk. This should make the UK build a bit more navy for Europe if it wants to get troops to France, leaving it w/fewer IPCs to spend in India.


2) He is also exploring some variations for movement, that will speed things up over at his site. He is looking at allowing ground units to move two spaces. as long as the 2nd move doesn't end in combat or in a contested territory (I think that's the latest thought). If using the extra move you basically need to stay in friendly territories. It's kind like having a non combat move rolled into the established single move phase  (Edit) You can't enter a neutral or hostel territory with the 2nd move, but you can reinforce friendly territories, and reinforce/fight for contested territories (there are some other strings attached, but it's  pretty cool IMO).

3) He's also giving +1 to navy departing from a friendly naval base (like in global) to offset what is perceived to be a CP advantage w/2 moves on ground (allies generally dominate the sea, and it will help get the US into Europe faster). There is also an attacker retreat option w/this variation (similar to other games).

4) He is also going with a variation to Sub Warfare allowing sub econ attacks on US/UK to hit on 3 or less, and tally them up.

Anyway, good luck in getting this game right, and I hope to attend someday.


PS: I like what was done with the global 1942 version, and we're trying it out.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2013, 09:06:14 am by WILD BILL » Logged
KimRYoung
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« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2013, 09:15:59 am »

Quote
2) He is also exploring some variations for movement, that will speed things up over at his site. He is looking at allowing ground units to move two spaces, as long as the 2nd move doesn't end in combat or in a contested territory (I think that's the latest thought). If using the extra move you basically need to stay in friendly territories. It's kind like having a non combat move rolled into the established single move phase (pretty cool IMO).

Bill, the latest is you CAN move two into a contested territory, you just have to stop upon entering. Also can only move to an adjacent territory when moving out of a contested to either a friendly or contested (if you have units there already).

Kim
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WILD BILL
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« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2013, 10:49:04 am »

Quote
2) He is also exploring some variations for movement, that will speed things up over at his site. He is looking at allowing ground units to move two spaces, as long as the 2nd move doesn't end in combat or in a contested territory (I think that's the latest thought). If using the extra move you basically need to stay in friendly territories. It's kind like having a non combat move rolled into the established single move phase (pretty cool IMO).

Bill, the latest is you CAN move two into a contested territory, you just have to stop upon entering. Also can only move to an adjacent territory when moving out of a contested to either a friendly or contested (if you have units there already).

Kim


Thanks for the clarification. To move 2 spaces your units must start in a friendly territory (this part I had right). I like that you can move through a friendly territory and into a contested territory to reinforce or attack (just can't move twice to attack a neutral, or hostel territory). The second part for moving out of a contested territory is the same as the newly revised rule for moving out of a contested territory isn't it? (DJ may not have know about this officially revised rule though).

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KimRYoung
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« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2013, 04:55:40 pm »

Quote
The second part for moving out of a contested territory is the same as the newly revised rule for moving out of a contested territory isn't it? (DJ may not have know about this officially revised rule though).
 

That is correct sir

Kim
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« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2013, 09:18:27 pm »

Have this game but haven't had the time to crack it open yet.  Larry's recent thread about his "variant" rules make it a little difficult to create a FTF tourney set of rules.  Its seems like he is leaning on changing some of the rules already if testing goes well.  Love to help more but I still have yet to play the game. sad
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eudemonist
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« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2013, 09:04:23 am »

Sorry, D, I've only really played two-and-a-half games, but I'll try to stick to "signal".

Tough question.  My initial impulse is to lean toward a territory-control goal, something like "CP must control a total of six original French, British, or Italian territories." 

An income target might be workable as well, but I think that might be more prone to being "gamed".
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Flashman
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« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2013, 12:11:11 pm »

Or put the clock back by making mandatory US entry a few rounds later. As it stands, the CPs are pretty much tied to going for a quick victory before the Americans get going.
It can also be tied to the RR situation; Wilson was not keen on fighting alongside Imperial Russia.
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eudemonist
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« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2013, 01:00:32 pm »

Guys, I really gotta point out, he specifically mentioned "rules and setup should remain the same".

djensen, Flashman does bring up an interesting point, though--Russian Revolution, or no?  It's an "optional rule", and how you treat it will affect your victory conditions.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2013, 01:02:37 pm by eudemonist » Logged
Flashman
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« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2013, 01:26:36 pm »

Perhaps America can't come into the war unless attacked OR the Russian Revolution has already occurred.

That is, the conditions for revolution have been met, if the Central Powers have accepted the treaty or not.

Think of it this way: the conditions automatically bring about the fall of the Tzar, and the Americans are now sympathetic to the new Russian (Republican) government and will enter the war if its at least turn 4.

If, on a subsequent turn, the conditions occur again the CPs can now accept a treaty. They may wish to delay signing it in order to grab more Russian land or even go for Moscow. But if they accept first time they're guaranteed not to have to fight Russia and America at the same time.
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djensen
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« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2013, 09:52:11 am »

Guys, I really gotta point out, he specifically mentioned "rules and setup should remain the same".

djensen, Flashman does bring up an interesting point, though--Russian Revolution, or no?  It's an "optional rule", and how you treat it will affect your victory conditions.

I'm willing to revise that the rules should come from official sources. So if Larry is putting out a set of "official" optional rules, I think that should be considered.

Even so, the victory conditions in a 6 hour tournament still need to be determined.
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smo63
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« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2013, 10:10:21 am »

This thread is only for those of you who have played at least 3 face-to-face games for at least 6 hours each. You're certainly willing to chime in otherwise but I would like to keep the signal to noise ratio high, meaning lot's of signal, no noise.

What are your thoughts on face-to-face tournament rules?

Keep in mind the following:

- You only have 6 hours to play.
- Play starts with the game already set up and ready to go.
- Just because the Central Powers take Moscow doesn't mean the game is over.
- What are the victory conditions at the end of 6 hours?
- Face to face tournament play is very different. You're playing to win in a condensed period of time with different or additional victory conditions. You do not have all day to compete a game.
- Except for victory conditions, the rest of the rules and setup should remain the same.


Dave,

Thanks for posting this.  With a new game there is always a challenge to come up with something in the way of a FTF tournament event at the CON's  People will want to play and compete, Hence the reason for coming up with something. 

And Yes, I have gone to Larry with this one.  The last time he hit a home run with the IPC victory chart for Revised.  He is currently working on something similar. 

The only things I know for sure are that: Yes, 6 hours or less time frame.  Combat will NOT be changed in any way.  Meaning still only one round for land units.  No Russian Revolution will be used.  Also we are trying to find a way to get US into the game sooner.  This might help combat the longer game? 

Thanks again.
Sincerely,
Greg Smorey
Axis & Allies EO/GM: GEN CON, Origins & Spring Gatherin
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eudemonist
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« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2013, 10:20:28 am »

I'm willing to revise that the rules should come from official sources. So if Larry is putting out a set of "official" optional rules, I think that should be considered.

Cool.  I think that's a good idea, if we ever get any "official" updates.  It seems like we might should decide on the rules of the game before trying to figure out how it's won, though;  any changes are almost certain to impact what you would want as victory conditions, aren't they?

I guess it doesn't hurt to toss around ideas, though.
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Flashman
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« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2013, 10:24:37 am »

1917 scenario?

Then you can forget RR and American entry rules.

America starts at war, but with a small army all still at home.
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