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Author Topic: Operation Sealion  (Read 3079 times)
HortenFlyingWing
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« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2002, 01:41:00 pm »
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Building up for sealion forces both the UK and America to build defensive forces.  That alone, germany can tie up the entire allies, while japan becomes very powerful.  If there are no troops in eastern canada, germany can blitz DC as long as they have transports in the baltic or off the coast of africa.
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« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2002, 03:16:00 pm »
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Sounds good in theory.  Except how do you propose to have German transports in either the Baltic or off the coast of Africa?

The Baltic is suicide, as anything you buy for there dies immediately. Off the coast of Africa is equally implausible as anything you put there will immediately get smoked by the UK or US.

So again, how exactly are you proposing to build up anything for Operation Sealion?  Please explain your buys and moves.

I'll give the generic Allied responses to start.  UK 1: AC & 1 Tranny.  US 1: 3 trannies, 4 Inf....existing tranny and ftrs cover UK fleet in NSea, BB moves to WPanama canal...with or without tranny depending on ��� move and possibly with an AC, Ftr and sub if ��� forgoes HawaiiSz in order to aid the German Operation Sealion by moving to Africa ASAP (as proposed above).  UK 2: 2 trannies and a few infantry.  US 2: 1 tranny, rest ground forces, BB makes it to EUSA.  UK 3 moves 4 Inf, 1 Arm to Algeria.  US 3 moves 6 Inf, 1 Arm (min) to Algeria along with BB.  Result: end T3...there is a minimum AC, 2 Ftrs, 1 BB and 7-8 trannies in the Spain/AlgeriaSz.

Please tell me how you plan to get past them?
What have you bought and where.  I will then adjust my Allied strategy accordingly and let you know what I would do.  As well, please be clear about what exactly happens on G1 in Africa and with the UK fleet and what you expect to have left.  

SUD
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HortenFlyingWing
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« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2002, 04:21:00 pm »
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(playing russia restricted)

Well germany has to take out the entire Allied fleet (its doable, I have done it.) and with 32 IPCs start building a fleet in the mediterranean (GB has 2 fighters and a bomber, they can take out any baltic fleet at that point.)  Depending on where GB puts there aircraft (they might want to defend russia) makes it wheter germany puts a fleet in the medditeranean or baltic.  the truth is that if the allies went all out on Germany, then a german fleet might not be plausible...but let me try.

Germany buys an aircraft carrier and a transport.  Depending on what germany takes, depends on how much territory they control.  the truth is that most people who play as germany never build a fleet, so the allies have nothing but transports.  The allies would have to invest in expensive weaponry to combat germany, wasting precious time and IPCs which are needed for an invasion of western europe.  

Germany, while throwing all available offensive forces in eastern europe continues putting forces in africa.  If germany invests in a fleet, they cannot go on the offensive very long against russia...only long enough to split russia's forces to weaken them.  Germany can with its carrier from turn one fill it with fighters.  They can buy another transport or two, a sub or so, and with their already existing battleship, have a sizeable fleet.  If germany doesn't go fullout against russia, it can keep its valuable aircraft for attacking an "Transport Only" allied fleet.  If Ameirca and GB invest in a fleet to counter germany, the invasion of europe will be delayed.  Russia cannot fully recover to attack germany until about turn 4 (by then they have an overwhelming amount of infantry.)  If the allies invested in destroying germany's offensive fleet, they couldn't take western europe by at least turn 4 or 5.  by then, an unthreatened Japan has complexes in india, siam, and manchuria, knocking on russia's backdoor.

a smart allies would have to invest some ipcs to distract japan, or go full out against germany (and what if japan sends some forces americas way?)  the truth is if the axis play smart, they can spread ally resources thin.  Investing in a powerful offensive fleet against a power with aircraft on land is very expensive.  Then the allies have to defend both Great Britain and Eastern United States, possibly even western if america moves out its pacific fleet.
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« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2002, 05:57:00 pm »
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Alright, so Germany spends $26 the first round on fleet, leaving her enough extra for 2 Inf.  Then say 1 sub or 1 Tranny in each of 2nd and 3rd rounds.  Leaving her with an AC, BB, 2 subs, & 2 Trannies at the end of G3.  Lets assume G1 goes very well and she has 4 Ftrs and a bomber left, but destroyed the entire UK Navy.  She has invested $40 on her own navy.

What has happened in Africa?  If you move the fleet to hit Egypt, you now have a naked AC and tranny in the Central Med.  I am licking my lips.  Either I hit your survivors with 1 Syria, 2 India, India Ftr and UK Bomber....destroying every unit except 1 that you have in Africa...or if my sub retreats...you end up placing your AC and tranny in the Baltic!!!!!! Or I use it and the India Ftr and the Bomber to kill the BB and tranny...or the sub and bomber to kill the AC and tranny.

Or, you don't hit Egypt, in which case I simply retreat from Egypt, bring over the India forces to IEA, move up the SAfrica guy, fly in the india Ftr and the UK bomber and crush you when you move to Egypt in the second round.

BTW, this is why the game is not balanced without a bid, even in RR, and why the Allies should win almost all games.  There is simply no way to stop the UK from smacking around the Germans in Africa.

But back to the scenario. With no money ($6) on Rd 1, and only mid-high 20s to spend in rounds 2-3 on Infantry, Germany has rough parity in income to spend against the Russkies.  How do you propose to move Inf to Africa, when every man you have will be needed to defend EE?  Worse still, who is defending WE? How will you hold or even trade WE when every man is required just to hold EE?

And what are you going to do against the Allied fleet off of Spain and the 10 Inf & 2 Arm in Algeria.

If you send this entire fleet and all air against the Allied fleet, you have roughly a 50% chance to sink it...but even with that 50% chance, the most likely outcome is that you lose the entire attacking force, except perhaps 1 or 2 pieces if you are lucky.

You now have invested a ton of money on a fleet, without being able to move any more forces to Africa than if you had simply built 1 extra tranny.  You have left yourself incredibly weak in Europe and you have just sacrificed your entire fleet and airforce.  On the UK and US turns they simply rebuild their trannies and overrun Africa with their men.

Meanwhile, with no Ftrs for defence in Europe the Russkies are threatening to take EE immediately.  Simply stack every man except 1 in the Caucusus into Karelia and build 8 there on R1. Put all Eastern forces into Yakut to block the ���.  Germany has no chance for victory on G1 in Karelia.  On R2 build 8 more in Karelia and retreat the 1 armour from Yakut to Russia. Send a couple infantry, 3 arm and 2 Ftrs and take Finland. Take the Ukraine as well if you can/want. Since Germany has built only 2 Inf on G1, they have nothing to reinforce EE with on G2.  Worse, 2 Ftrs are now sitting around pointlessly on a carrier. On R3, you now have enough forces to take EE, destroying virtually every unit Germany has, except what she just built on G2. Every extra man you move on G2 to Africa just makes it easier for Russia on R3.  The game is now essentially over.

All of this happens before Japan can seriously advance in Asia and before she can even get a fleet into the Suez/Med theatre.

It is a good thought, but any decent Allied player will simply bottle you up as I have noted. Heck, if the Allies are worried, the UK, on UK 3, can simply sacrifice a tranny by moving it into the GibraltarSz when it unloads to Algeria, thereby blocking any German attempt to even attack the fleet.  Moving a sub or something there on G2 or G3(to Gibraltar) is pointless as it will just be killed by the UK or US bombers/ftrs for free, and the UK can still move a tranny there on non-combat.

The problem with this strategy is that a Carrier costs way too much for Germany to give up 6 Inf for it...and it adds essentially nothing in terms of offensive power.  For Germany, it is really only a defensive piece which ties up a Ftr or two, costs 6 Inf and terribly weakens Europe with no gain in moving troops to Africa.

Try it and have fun.  But don't expect it to be a serious strategy.  The very few times I have seen it, I have been dismayed.  Why?  Because I know that I am going to waste an hour or so, before certain victory...and I would much rather invest the time in a good battle.


SUD
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TG Moses VI
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« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2002, 06:47:00 pm »
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Yes, the main problem I can see here about UK ruining Germany's plans is if they use transports as blockers off Spain to protect their more valuable home waters.

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Ozone27
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« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2002, 08:42:00 pm »
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I resurrected my post. It's under "UK Invasion: a not-so-insane strategy". Fire away.

To TG Moses: That can be countered. If UK builds a TR fleet to "block" the Axis off Spain, Germany and Japan (who should have some fighters and a BMR in the area pretty quickly) should have a shot at it before it moves to Spain. More likely, USA will move to Spain w/ a fleet. But in this case, Japan will have an opportunity to destroy it before Germany moves which might help "clear the way" for the German assault on UK. Regardless, UK should have so little money by the time you are ready for invasion that a TR "fleet" should be pretty close to out of the question. I dunno...

I agree that Germany should not be building CVs or BBs. That is why Japan must help out.

I'd like to add that my strategy is far from a guaranteed gamewinner. I just think with a  bit of surprise (and it's sometimes easy to surprise "jaded" players with new strategies) that it is possible...

Ozone27
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TG Moses VI
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« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2002, 11:04:00 pm »
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Actually you are right, the Japanese should be able to reach Germany in time and but how many turns would it take?  
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Ozone27
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« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2002, 07:44:00 am »
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Read my post. I figure 3 turns min...Best case scenario, the invasion can be ready next turn, but I doubt UK will be quite weak enough then for the Axis to launch an invasion (and Germany may need a couple more fighters)...

Ozone27

[ This Message was edited by: Ozone27 on 2002-03-21 07:47 ]
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HortenFlyingWing
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« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2002, 08:51:00 am »
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Building a fleet is an alternate strategy, but never a reliable strategy.

thr main strat is to go after russia.
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TG Moses VI
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« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2002, 01:45:00 pm »
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I think that we all already know that.  
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HortenFlyingWing
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« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2002, 06:00:00 am »
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Yeah, I know.
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