• How should germany build up for it instead of attacking russia? what should japan do to support germany? a friend and I want to do something different.

    any suggestions?


  • I dunno, how long can you hold off the russians for? The problem with Sea Lion is once you make the purchases necessary for such an operation, UK can just gain the advantage by just building the same amount ofb inf.


  • Indeed, but in doing so you can divert British resources away from more profitable ventures (asia, africa).


  • Our last game ended with Germany taking the U.K… It was only by a bit of deception, and luck that it worked.

    The Allies were playing a Japan 1st stratedgy, so UK had an IC in India, and was spending most of its money there build a plan and 2 tanks per turn. Japan was strapped, but holding its own at about 25 IPCs

    Germany was a monster of course, and was able to decisively take Karelia on turn 6. After the Karelia battle, Germany landed its planes in Norway, which should be a tipoff to the UK, but the UKL didn’t notice. The German Med fleet had 3 transports, and was shuttling troops to Africa to counter the steady flow of troops a from the US. On the turn before the UK attack the German fleet dumped troops into Algeria, so as to be in striking distance of the UK. It looked like a reasonable counter move to the US invasion of Africa to UKs alarms were not going off.

    With a strong German force in Karelia, all Allied focus was on defending Moscow. Moscow was in no immediate danger, but would clearly fall in 2 or 3 turns, so the allies were nicely distracted when Germany invaded the UK the next turn with 6 inf, 3 ftrs, and a bomber. the UK had 4 inf, 1 tank, and 1 fighter. The AA guns missed, and Germany was able to take the UK. It was an awesome surprise attack.

    I think the only chance for Germany to take the UK before Moscow, is a sneak attack like what happened in our last Game.


  • Well I guess that was one bluff that paid off! I once tried a similar decoy with success. I was USA with about 5 transports fully loaded with inf., 2 ftrs, 1 bomber. I think the German player had about 15 inf, 2 ftrs, 1 bomber in WE. 8 inf., 3 ftrs, 4 ARM in Germany. 2 inf., 6 ARM in SE. The Germans were expecting me to to hit WE from the coast of Spain but instead I took SE. The loss of ARM was so much for Germany that Russia was able to barrel into Germany.


  • In a game today, Russia was taken and Germany started to build a fleet in the Baltic sea. Germany wasn’t planning on taking Britain though, there was no men in Eastern Canada, or East U.S.! America planned to buy their new “Heavy Bombers” in west U.S. against me. If me and my ally didn’t get an IPC victory, we would of had a nice sneak attack! America admitted (after the game) that they didn’t see it coming.


  • Hmmm… it looks like most of these victories have been when the Axis or Allied player is on the upside. Were there any times when you were down on your luck and you put everything on a last ditch “Battle of the Buldge” and won it? I remember when I was Axis and had Germany, WE, and SE against three Allied Armies. Some how I was able to build up 50 inf. in Germany and went on an unstopable campaign with about half those men taking all the territories to the Caucasus where I linked up with Japan.


  • I posted a while back my own strategy for an invasion of UK and it didn’t get a lot of responses. It too requires a bit of legerdemain to pull off, but not QUITE so much a s quick invasion. This is a strategy that works only when the Allies are used to your typical moves…

    1st Germany and Japan have to agree to wage all-out economic war on the UK with an eye toward an invasion. 1st turn Germany moves as normal (that is a heavy build-up against USSR to keep 'em busy) but preserves the fleet and launches a strong effort in Africa. The point (unbeknownst to the Allies) is to keep USSR busy and take all of Africa away from the UK, while preserving some kind of fleet (mainly TR’s and the BB). Japan takes Australia T1 and moves against India T2 while building another CV to maintain naval parity w/ the USA. This is the decision point where you and your partner must agree either that the situation is favorable to continue the strategy or to bail out into a more conventonal USSR 1st strategy.

    If you decide to go forward, the Japanese fleet in Bengal Sea moves against the Suez, taking it if the Germans haven’t already. T4 the Japanese move to the Med and the Germans start building TR’s and FTRs. When the time is right, the Japanese attack whatever fleet is in North Sea (softening up any UK resistance on the islands), and the Germans follow up with a full-scale invasion w/ INF and planes.

    The key is economic warfare–you must reduce the UK to such a state of economic ruin that they cannot react even when they see the invasion coming. The USA must be kept out of the battle through good use of air power. And joint strategic bombing of UK by Japanese and German BMRs is also of vital importance. Most of all you msut be sneaky and quick–if you lose, salvaging the situation is next to impossible…

    As amazing as it seems, this strategy almost won me a game. Me and the Germany player actually reduced UK to an income of 12 IPCs and were taking more in joint Stragic Bombing raids. The invasion took place, but the Germans lost–leaving 1 FTR in UK! Only later did we realize (much to our chagrin) that 2 German FTRs had been left out of the battle because we had not thought we could land them–even though a Japanese CV was sitting right there in UK waters providing a landing place! This slip-up was the only reason this strategy did not work, and I stick by it… I can’t try it again anytime soon ('cuz my buddies are on to me and we rotate players), but I still maintain this strategy is a potential winner if sufficient surprise can be acheived. And hell–it’ll be an interesting game regardless…

    Anyone who is interested in the actual moves of my goofy strategy lemme know–I will resurrect my original post…

    Good Luck

    Ozone27


  • I’m an sucker for any strat you can throw at me, and this one ranks as one of the best. I’m serious any strat that’s Unconventional And Has a reasonable chance of succeeding is a good one. I’m interested into knowing how many transports and aircraft took part in the grand invasion. Is there any way to out the US Fleet on the first turn by Japan and take the South Pacific in T2? I would think it would make your moves less intentional on your UK strat. and save you 18 IPCs from buying an extra CV.


  • Sounds like a cool strat. Shouldn’t japan take india in turn 1 though?


  • Usually it depends. If Britain builds an IC in India, then by all means go for it. Otherwise you will find that there are much better territories in the Far East that can be taken with half the loses.


  • Only reasons to take Australia w/ this strategy are that it hurts UKs economy, it throws off USA (hopefully) and it sets you up for a surprise attack on India next turn. Otherwise, go for India T1 if you want.

    TG Moses–jeez I wish I could remember specifically how many TR’s/FTRs Germany had in our invasion (I was playing Japan). I THINK it was something like 4 TR’s and like 5 FTRs and a BMR. UK had like 6 INF and 3 FTRs I think…? Sadly I am not sure…I do remember we got pretty good luck with dice rolls in our attack and I’m POSITIVE that with the 2 FTRs Germany had just built in Germany (and which I told him couldn’t land in spite of my empty CV in the North Sea!) we would’ve won. It wsn’t “certain victory” that’s for sure, but it was winnable. I would’ve liked to have seen where the game went next had we won: we wouldn’t have plundered many IPC’s from UK but the startegical situation would’ve COMPLETELY CHANGED. Oh well…the UK player felt quite picked on toward the end!

    Anyway, I am resurrecting my original post from the Archives. Feel free to critique as necessary–I know this is a freaky plan…

    Ozone27


  • Well battles can be one and loss on the slightest technicality. Also I’m sure that with 5 German ftrs., 1 bomber, and 2-4 transports, Germany is a pretty good position to take UK. I think the main trick would be keeping your transports in South France to make it look like you’re ferrying troops into Africa and attack right after UK has spent its IPCs on transports or bombers.


  • Oh yeah–exactly. In general though I would think UK would start to freak out when the combined fleet takes up position at South of France–by now it’s OBVIOUS what is happening but UK doesn’t have the resources to stop it…

    Ozone27


  • Well, I’ll wait for you to drag out your old post, so I can see exactly what you are proposing……but unless the Allied player is asleep…by the end of turn 3 there should be an AC, 2 Ftrs, 1 BB, 7 trannies at a minimum off the Spain/Algeria coast. And there should be something on the order of 4 Inf, 1 Arm for the UK sitting in Algeria, and 6 Inf, 1 Arm for the US there as well.

    Indeed, the combined Allied fleet should be invincible and should slaughter the Jap fleet. Once the Jap goes through the canal, it is a very simple matter for the US/UK to stop them. Simply consolidate off the Spain/Algeria coast. If need be, simply buy 4 US subs on the turn Jap makes it to the central Med. They simply do not have near enough firepower to take on a combined Allied fleet. Ergo, Bye Bye Jap fleet. As well, why isn’t the German navy dead before the Japs even make it to the Suez, let alone into the Med?

    There is absolutely nothing you can do as the Axis to prevent a significant navy off the Spain Coast, before the Japs even make it into the theatre. The only thing you could do is suicide the German air on G2 against the NSea. But then, you will be holding on for dear life…not trying to invade the UK.

    SUD


  • Building up for sealion forces both the UK and America to build defensive forces. That alone, germany can tie up the entire allies, while japan becomes very powerful. If there are no troops in eastern canada, germany can blitz DC as long as they have transports in the baltic or off the coast of africa.


  • Sounds good in theory. Except how do you propose to have German transports in either the Baltic or off the coast of Africa?

    The Baltic is suicide, as anything you buy for there dies immediately. Off the coast of Africa is equally implausible as anything you put there will immediately get smoked by the UK or US.

    So again, how exactly are you proposing to build up anything for Operation Sealion? Please explain your buys and moves.

    I’ll give the generic Allied responses to start. UK 1: AC & 1 Tranny. US 1: 3 trannies, 4 Inf….existing tranny and ftrs cover UK fleet in NSea, BB moves to WPanama canal…with or without tranny depending on Jap move and possibly with an AC, Ftr and sub if Jap forgoes HawaiiSz in order to aid the German Operation Sealion by moving to Africa ASAP (as proposed above). UK 2: 2 trannies and a few infantry. US 2: 1 tranny, rest ground forces, BB makes it to EUSA. UK 3 moves 4 Inf, 1 Arm to Algeria. US 3 moves 6 Inf, 1 Arm (min) to Algeria along with BB. Result: end T3…there is a minimum AC, 2 Ftrs, 1 BB and 7-8 trannies in the Spain/AlgeriaSz.

    Please tell me how you plan to get past them?
    What have you bought and where. I will then adjust my Allied strategy accordingly and let you know what I would do. As well, please be clear about what exactly happens on G1 in Africa and with the UK fleet and what you expect to have left.

    SUD


  • (playing russia restricted)

    Well germany has to take out the entire Allied fleet (its doable, I have done it.) and with 32 IPCs start building a fleet in the mediterranean (GB has 2 fighters and a bomber, they can take out any baltic fleet at that point.) Depending on where GB puts there aircraft (they might want to defend russia) makes it wheter germany puts a fleet in the medditeranean or baltic. the truth is that if the allies went all out on Germany, then a german fleet might not be plausible…but let me try.

    Germany buys an aircraft carrier and a transport. Depending on what germany takes, depends on how much territory they control. the truth is that most people who play as germany never build a fleet, so the allies have nothing but transports. The allies would have to invest in expensive weaponry to combat germany, wasting precious time and IPCs which are needed for an invasion of western europe.

    Germany, while throwing all available offensive forces in eastern europe continues putting forces in africa. If germany invests in a fleet, they cannot go on the offensive very long against russia…only long enough to split russia’s forces to weaken them. Germany can with its carrier from turn one fill it with fighters. They can buy another transport or two, a sub or so, and with their already existing battleship, have a sizeable fleet. If germany doesn’t go fullout against russia, it can keep its valuable aircraft for attacking an “Transport Only” allied fleet. If Ameirca and GB invest in a fleet to counter germany, the invasion of europe will be delayed. Russia cannot fully recover to attack germany until about turn 4 (by then they have an overwhelming amount of infantry.) If the allies invested in destroying germany’s offensive fleet, they couldn’t take western europe by at least turn 4 or 5. by then, an unthreatened Japan has complexes in india, siam, and manchuria, knocking on russia’s backdoor.

    a smart allies would have to invest some ipcs to distract japan, or go full out against germany (and what if japan sends some forces americas way?) the truth is if the axis play smart, they can spread ally resources thin. Investing in a powerful offensive fleet against a power with aircraft on land is very expensive. Then the allies have to defend both Great Britain and Eastern United States, possibly even western if america moves out its pacific fleet.


  • Alright, so Germany spends $26 the first round on fleet, leaving her enough extra for 2 Inf. Then say 1 sub or 1 Tranny in each of 2nd and 3rd rounds. Leaving her with an AC, BB, 2 subs, & 2 Trannies at the end of G3. Lets assume G1 goes very well and she has 4 Ftrs and a bomber left, but destroyed the entire UK Navy. She has invested $40 on her own navy.

    What has happened in Africa? If you move the fleet to hit Egypt, you now have a naked AC and tranny in the Central Med. I am licking my lips. Either I hit your survivors with 1 Syria, 2 India, India Ftr and UK Bomber….destroying every unit except 1 that you have in Africa…or if my sub retreats…you end up placing your AC and tranny in the Baltic!!! Or I use it and the India Ftr and the Bomber to kill the BB and tranny…or the sub and bomber to kill the AC and tranny.

    Or, you don’t hit Egypt, in which case I simply retreat from Egypt, bring over the India forces to IEA, move up the SAfrica guy, fly in the india Ftr and the UK bomber and crush you when you move to Egypt in the second round.

    BTW, this is why the game is not balanced without a bid, even in RR, and why the Allies should win almost all games. There is simply no way to stop the UK from smacking around the Germans in Africa.

    But back to the scenario. With no money ($6) on Rd 1, and only mid-high 20s to spend in rounds 2-3 on Infantry, Germany has rough parity in income to spend against the Russkies. How do you propose to move Inf to Africa, when every man you have will be needed to defend EE? Worse still, who is defending WE? How will you hold or even trade WE when every man is required just to hold EE?

    And what are you going to do against the Allied fleet off of Spain and the 10 Inf & 2 Arm in Algeria.

    If you send this entire fleet and all air against the Allied fleet, you have roughly a 50% chance to sink it…but even with that 50% chance, the most likely outcome is that you lose the entire attacking force, except perhaps 1 or 2 pieces if you are lucky.

    You now have invested a ton of money on a fleet, without being able to move any more forces to Africa than if you had simply built 1 extra tranny. You have left yourself incredibly weak in Europe and you have just sacrificed your entire fleet and airforce. On the UK and US turns they simply rebuild their trannies and overrun Africa with their men.

    Meanwhile, with no Ftrs for defence in Europe the Russkies are threatening to take EE immediately. Simply stack every man except 1 in the Caucusus into Karelia and build 8 there on R1. Put all Eastern forces into Yakut to block the Jap. Germany has no chance for victory on G1 in Karelia. On R2 build 8 more in Karelia and retreat the 1 armour from Yakut to Russia. Send a couple infantry, 3 arm and 2 Ftrs and take Finland. Take the Ukraine as well if you can/want. Since Germany has built only 2 Inf on G1, they have nothing to reinforce EE with on G2. Worse, 2 Ftrs are now sitting around pointlessly on a carrier. On R3, you now have enough forces to take EE, destroying virtually every unit Germany has, except what she just built on G2. Every extra man you move on G2 to Africa just makes it easier for Russia on R3. The game is now essentially over.

    All of this happens before Japan can seriously advance in Asia and before she can even get a fleet into the Suez/Med theatre.

    It is a good thought, but any decent Allied player will simply bottle you up as I have noted. Heck, if the Allies are worried, the UK, on UK 3, can simply sacrifice a tranny by moving it into the GibraltarSz when it unloads to Algeria, thereby blocking any German attempt to even attack the fleet. Moving a sub or something there on G2 or G3(to Gibraltar) is pointless as it will just be killed by the UK or US bombers/ftrs for free, and the UK can still move a tranny there on non-combat.

    The problem with this strategy is that a Carrier costs way too much for Germany to give up 6 Inf for it…and it adds essentially nothing in terms of offensive power. For Germany, it is really only a defensive piece which ties up a Ftr or two, costs 6 Inf and terribly weakens Europe with no gain in moving troops to Africa.

    Try it and have fun. But don’t expect it to be a serious strategy. The very few times I have seen it, I have been dismayed. Why? Because I know that I am going to waste an hour or so, before certain victory…and I would much rather invest the time in a good battle.

    SUD


  • Yes, the main problem I can see here about UK ruining Germany’s plans is if they use transports as blockers off Spain to protect their more valuable home waters.

    –-
    Yay, reached 200 post!

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