Germany to Africa, how?

Re: What if you were Hitler

I always think about this!

What I would do depends on the time period, although in all scenarios I would let the generals focus on the details and I will focus on the bigger picture, along with minimising all atrocities and repealing all anti semitic laws and bringing Jews to work in industry and the military to increase my bargaining position and strength. Total war, the mobilisation of all resources for the war effort, will be declared as early as possible. The big projects, such as the Maus, Ratte, Lowe, the ME 262 jet fighter, the V-2, V-1, V-3, and other rocket projects, as well as other Wunderwaffe, as these were too new, would have had many technological problems (like in real life), and whilst the US could invest in such new technologies, Germany couldn’t when fighting a multiple front war, with fewer resources, and most of the fighting taking place on the Eastern Front, where the completed Wunderwaffe were never used. Finally, the E series of tanks would be built as early as possible. I will only build the E-75 Standardpanzer, as powerful as a Tiger Two, but much cheaper and less complicated to build and maintain, and the E-25 Jagdpanzer. I will change Enigma codes regularly to make it harder to defeat the U-boats, which I will do with all the scenarios here. Another thing I will do in all scenarios is to create an anti aircraft defence like the British did to defend against bombing attacks.

1939: I’ll let the Polish campaign as it is, and don’t invade Scandinavia. This way, Chamberlain would stay in power during the Battle Of France, and when Churchill rises, he would be in them middle of a crisis than at the beginning, and coupled with the encirclement and destruction of the BEF, sue for peace with Britain. After that, don’t declare war on the US, and go all in on the Soviet Union. I would also recruit the Soviet population to fight for Germany. Many people in the Soviet Union hated Stalin and were more than happy to overthrow the Soviet government. Two examples in real life were the defection of a Soviet regiment and a request from officials from Smolensk after the capture of the city, to create a Russian Liberation Army. I will say that they should join Germany, I will have them treated as nicely as possible, create self governing regions, create local forces to eliminate a lot of partisan activity. As for the German navy, I would finish the Seydlitz and Graf Zepplin, and use the German surface fleet to engage in a massive battle with the Royal Navy to lower British morale. I would also let the navy develop their own branch of land based aircraft for more coordination. I would also do this for the 1941 scenario.

Beginning of 1941: Go straight up to Franco and the leaders of Turkey and tell them that they have to join the Axis or be invaded. Don’t invade the Soviet Union yet, and strike a good deal with Vichy France-I will probably mediate so that Italy and Spain get what they want from French North Africa, and give Vichy France as compensation large amounts of Sub-Saharan Africa that Italy doesn’t want. With a full push in the Mediterranean, the British would not help Greece out, capturing Tripoli, but allowing the Germans to move into Tunisia and push the British back into Libya, hopefully crossing the Egyptian border by the end of 1941. Whilst all of this is happening, an airborne invasion of Malta, with Crete not garrisoned, will be launched, and after the capture of Gibraltar through Spain, will ensure the safe supply of resources to Africa. More German troops (possibly an entire Panzer Army), along with Vichy forces, would raise Italian morale. More oil will be allocated for the Italian navy, raising morale. By 1942, the Axis would have pushed through into the Middle East, and a peace treaty should be signed as soon as possible with Britain-even if the Middle East is safe in British hands, a southern front against the Soviets can still be launched through Turkey. I will order the construction of the E-series tanks as fast as possible, but only two types: the Jagdpanzer E-25 tank destroyer, and the E-75 Standard Panzer, as powerful as the Tiger Two, but much cheaper, simpler, and easier to produce. I will not declare war on the US, and by 1942 or 1943, launch Operation Barborossa, and despite more Soviet T-34s and KV-1s and 2s, and more preparations and alertness, the power of the E-75, additional Turkish, Vichy French, Italian, and Spanish forces, bombardment by the Italian navy in the Black Sea, German forces not needed from the Mediterranean, and the opening of a southern front through Turkey would make victory much more likely. I would also recruit the Soviet population, as shown above. By the end of 1944, the Axis should have captured Moscow, and Ukraine, Belarus, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia should be independent countries, and all the nations of Eastern Europe should be united by an alliance, headed by Germany. The Vichy French navy is a powerful force and can wreak havoc in the Mediterranean, which can be used with the Italian navy later in the war in the Black Sea.

Beginning of 1942: I would invade Malta before Rommel’s invasion with paratrooper forces I will try to rebuild as fast as possible (not sacrificing quality, of course). Germany should launch an offensive towards the Caucasus, and not invade Stalingrad. The original plan for Operation Case Blue should be followed as shown below:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_Blue

Hopefully Rommel will succeed in North Africa, which he can then turn his attention against the American Operation Torch landings. Again, I will try to convince Spain, Vichy France, and Turkey to join the war, to make the Middle East more accessible and link up with the Axis in the Caucausus. Again, I will recruit the Soviet population, and despite lots of atrocities being committed, there still can be hope. Hopefully, with a more successful 1942 summer offensive, a peace deal can be achieved. The Graf Zepplin should be completed, as should the Seydlitz. I would do the Channel Dash as in real life, and use all large German ships to be stationed in Norway (including repairing the Gneisenau), and use them to attack Allied convoys. As many ships as possible should be committed for a single operation at once for maximum effect, and to be able to destroy more Allied naval units to gain a better peace treaty.

Late 1942: I will not invade Kursk, instead using those forces to defend on the Eastern Front, recruit the Soviet population (which will still be willing despite large amounts of atrocities occurring), and order the Sixth Army to break out during Operation Winter Storm, hopefully escaping. As Army Group A would not be able to capture anything significant anyway, it should be used to help breaking the encirclement. As many Axis forces in Tunisia should be evacuated as possible, hopefully delaying the Italian surrender. The plan for the German navy would be the same as in early 1942. As the Allies would probably win the Battle Of The Atlantic by now, I would abandon submarine production by summer 1943.

Early 1944: I would propose a fantastic peace deal to the Western Allies, where I would give up the entire Kriegsmarine, give the “10 Countries”: Luxembourg, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Greece, Albania, Denmark, Yugoslavia, Italy, and Norway. Poland will still be under control by Germany, due to the connection with the rest of Eastern Europe. The puppet states of Croatia and the Italian Social Republic will be dissolved, and the Western Allies can influence all of these countries to their liking. If that fails, I would also give the Allies “The Extra Offer Of 5 Countries”: Bulgaria, Estonia, Czechoslovakia, Lithuania, and Latvia. These countries can be influenced on the same terms as the first 10, and the puppet state of Slovakia will be dissolved. My only demand with all of these countries is that they should remain neutral in my war with the Soviet Union. Once the peace treaty has been signed, I would then move all of Germany’s mechanised forces to the Belarus, until I have 30 mechanised divisions there, ready to counter Operation Bagration. Hopefully the attack is stopped, and then I can move my mechanised forces southwards to counter Soviet offensives there as well. Hopefully, with my superior tanks, as powerful as the Tiger Two, but available in more numbers and having less mechanical breakdowns, and the entire Luftwaffe being able to concentrate on the Eastern Front, and resources used from naval production, I can defeat the Soviets and sign a peace treaty.

That’s because each nation during WWII learned different lessons during that war. USSR build their tanks to be cheap because they know they will lose equipment and men. They accept that losing soldiers is going to happen so they tend to use numbers to gain the edge, however they haven’t needed to do this since WWII. The last tried this in Afgan and it didn’t work so well.

The US can’t take loses for $hit, so we try to destroy you from the air, far way, as fast as possible and units that are designed to be in your face while fighting are armored up.

Still pretty decisive. Imagine if it had lasted 10 days instead of 1. :-o

Read “world war 2 behind closed doors” by laurence rees

There was a secret part in the treaty between the french, british and poles which the brits and the french promised military assistance against a German attack not a Soviet attack and remember they did not help in the war between the poles in the soviets in late 1910’s and early 1920’s but instead suggested the curzon line (which the Molotov-Ribbentrop line basicly followed)

Also the soviets at Tehran were more interested in soviet post war borders than they were in actually winning the war and remember in 1943 this was not a certainty. They wanted to keep there pre 1941 gains.

This is just a brief overview of some othe parts of the book I suggest you read it. It is very good.

The brits and the french could have attacked the siegfried line before the germans finished it and probably would have been succesful and because they did not co-operate with the Belgium people (I don’t know the correct word) and the dutch because the later two did not want to appear co-operating with the allies because at that time they were neutral. The Germans had a brilliant strategy in attacking (the aaa territory North West Europe) and then following nit up with the tank drive through the ardennes they cut of the Elite French and British troops from the rest of the army. They shouldn’t have allowed Dunkirk and should have forced the British and French into the sea and this would come back to haunt them.

@KurtGodel7:

@Imperious:

But short of that I think they could have won if Japan even made the gesture of attacking Russia.

The forces in the ‘far east’ didn’t cause Hitler to lose, Hitlers decision to attack Stalingrad and how he did it destroyed his chances in 1942.

In 1941 The winter caused Hitler to lose because he didn’t prepare for it and underestimated the Soviet army. Those forces were just icing on the cake used for the foiled counteroffensive, AFTER the Germans failed to take Moscow. The battles just before Moscow at Vyzma are the ones that cost the Germans too much time, so they didn’t get to Moscow in force after fighting 5 Soviet Armies.

“Contrary to German expectations, the encircled Soviet forces did not surrender easily. Instead, the fighting was fierce and desperate, and the Wehrmacht had to employ 28 divisions to eliminate the surrounded Soviet armies, using forces that were needed to support the offensive towards Moscow. The remnants of the Soviet Western and Reserve Fronts were able to retreat and consolidate their lines around Mozhaisk.[22]  Moreover, the surrounded Soviet forces were not completely destroyed, as some of the encircled troops escaped in groups ranging in size from platoons to full rifle divisions.[23]  Soviet resistance near Vyazma also provided time for the Soviet high command to quickly bring some reinforcements to the four armies defending the Moscow direction (namely, the 5th, 16th, 43rd and 49th), and to transport three rifle and two tank divisions from the Far East.”

I hardly think “three rifle and two tank divisions from the Far East” were the cause of the German failure. The weather and Hitlers unprepared logistics past a campaign of over 4 month duration were catastrophic.

If Japan attacked Russia it would have done nothing except expose yet another front to them and cause a 3 front war for Japan. The balance of the Soviet forces on the border were more than enough to wipe out the japanese Kwangtung army as they did in 1939.

Japan would gain nothing but another defeat, and tie up units that were used after Dec 41 in a protracted battle. Declaring war and doing nothing was not an option either. Stalin would go on the defensive if he was engaged with Germany. If Japan didn’t get her feet wet, the ploy would fail and 5 divisions still head toward Moscow. If they committed, it would have hastened japanese defeat in Asia. Stalin had more than enough forces for both once Moscow was protected.

You are obviously very familiar with this period of history. I think that the forces from the east to which the earlier poster was referring may have been the 100 divisions the Soviets shipped west during the winter of '41 - '42. After the Japanese attacked Britain and the U.S., Stalin knew they would have little attention to spare for a war against the Soviets.

I agree, however, that Stalin was probably guilty of being overly cautious on his eastern front, and that he could have safely sent large numbers of divisions westward against Germany regardless of what Japan did.

1905 may have played a role in Stalins units  in the East.

@ABWorsham:

Should the Italians and Germans occupied Tunisia in 1941? This would have given more airfields to attack Malta bound convoys, provided more ports for shipping, ports that were closer to the Apennine Peninsula. The addition of these ports would forced the British to hunt for shipping west of Malta, which could have helped ease the stress on Tripoli and Benghazi convoys.

Those might have proved to be advantages to the Axis, but they might have come at the cost of negative consequences that would have offset them.  Tunisia was a Vichy-controlled territory at the time.  If the Axis had invaded Tunisia, the Vichy regime would likely have regarded this as a breach of the 1940 armistice terms with Germany, and would probably have reacted in ways Germany would not have liked.  Remember that when the Allies invaded North Africa, Germany occupied the “unoccupied” Vichy-controlled southern part of France, to which France responded with the scuttle of its fleet at Toulon to keep it out of German hands.  France might have done the same thing if the Axis had walked into Tunisia in 1941, and might even have jumped to the Allied side entirely.  So the cost-benefit analysis of an Axis invasion of Tunisia involves some tricky might-have-beens.

On a pure physical basis, Turkey. Better access to resources and Russia.

On a fighting status basis, Spain. Their soldiers were definitely superior to Italian troops, and were battle hardened from the Civil War. Read up on the Spanish Blue Division in WWII - extremely tough soldiers on the Eastern Front.

That being said, I would have taken Turkey. Spain is just too big to defend. Although it’s troops would have been a nice addition in Africa.

In some of my other posts on this forum, I’ve described how even in 1940 (when the U.S. was still technically at peace with Germany), it had devoted a significant amount of industrial potential toward winning the air war against Germany; with plans to considerably expand the effort over the next several years. America’s strongest single asset was her industrial potential, as Hitler clearly understood. But that potential was going to be increasingly turned against Germany, whether the U.S. was technically at war or not.

Hitler’s plan to counter this was to expand Germany’s industrial output over the short-term, so that he could at least keep pace with the air war over Germany in the long haul. His method of expanding Germany’s output included industrialization and conquest. The industrialization aspect of his plan meant that instead of putting everything he had into weapons output for 1941 or 1942–in a massive effort to crush the Soviet Union–he had to divide his nation’s economic activity between short-term military production and long-term output increases. The result of all that industrial investment was that Germany increased its aircraft output from 16,000 planes per year in 1941 to over 40,000 planes per year by 1944. It also increased its military production in other categories, such as tanks and V2 rockets.

In late 1941, Hitler knew that his window of opportunity to win the war was relatively slim; and that 1942 would be critical. Germany had to win a decisive victory over the Soviet Union in that year, both to take pressure off its eastern front, and to provide it with the raw materials and manpower it needed to hold its own in the air war over the long haul. Hitler believed that the overwhelming majority of America’s naval strength would be needed in the Pacific to counter the Japanese; at least until the end of 1943. That gave him what he believed was a two year window with which he could sink the American Lend-Lease Aid pouring into Great Britain and the Soviet Union. Sinking those ships would increase Germany’s chances of obtaining the victory over the Soviet Union it desperately needed.

However, the Japanese Navy proved less adept than Hitler had hoped. The Battle of Midway occurred six months after Pearl Harbor. That battle took the naval pressure off the U.S. in the Pacific, and allowed it to focus more of its efforts on convoy protection in the Atlantic. More generally, the failure of the Japanese military meant that Japan would be far less successful in taking military pressure off of Germany than Hitler had hoped.

In 1942, the Soviet Union outproduced Germany 3:1 - 4:1 in tanks, artillery, and other land combat categories, and even 2:1 in military aircraft. It also fielded a much larger army than Germany. Thus evaporated Hitler’s hope of a decisive victory on his eastern front.

Had Hitler not declared war against the U.S., large amounts of American Lend-Lease aid would still have flowed to his enemies in Europe. Over the long-term, he still would have needed to devote a significant portion of his military production to defending German skies and German cities against American-made bombers. He would have lost out on the Second Happy Time (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Happy_Time ), which would have resulted in a stronger Soviet war effort for 1942. On the other hand, he wouldn’t have had to deal with the U.S. invasion of Algeria in 1942, its invasion of Sicily and Italy in 1943, or the Normandy invasion of '44. It’s easy to say in hindsight that the harm of the American invasions exceeded the benefit of sinking that Lend-Lease shipping in '42. But that distinction was less obvious at the time.