Thanks for the quick clarification!
I guess we just had a lot of lucky rolling for these attacks in our first game. I don’t think we ever lost a plane, which made me question whether this was allowed. But I can see that the probabillity makes it a risky strategy in the long term.
Mediterranean Naval Units
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I was wondering if anyone has educated guesses for starting naval units in the Mediterranean and the Black Sea. This stems from discussion on the possible French Fleet options or if they will even be present in the game.
I have been doing some reading and discovered the great deal of ship tonnage in the Mediterranean and I would like to hear opinions on what we might see. If the game is to be historically accurate, I would think there have to be French Naval units somewhere. Perhaps a battleship, a cruiser and a destroyer in the sea zone closest to Oran, and something similar in Alexandria. Their actual forces at Mers-el-Kabir were 2 Battleships, 2 Battlecruisers and 6 destroyers. The Alexandria based fleet consisted of 1 Battleship, 4 Cruisers and 3 Destroyers.
(As far as French naval units go, it is worthy to note that a sizable French force of 2 battleships, 4 cruisers and 8 destroyers turned themselves over in England, though this is not related to the Mediterranean.)
As for the Italians, I would think something similar to what was in Anniversary, if not more detailed: at least 1 BB (probably 2, though that is very unlikely), 2 CA, and 2-3 destroyers, plus some subs and assorted transports, most of which would be based in Taranto. The Italians did have a fleet, superior in numbers, to the British in the Mediterranean in 1940, so that should probably be shown somehow. After the French fleet’s removal, the Italians had 1 battleship, 15 cruisers, 35 destroyers and almost 100 submarines MORE than the British in the Mediterranean. This should be compensated for in some way so that it is not a push over for the Italians to take Egypt and the rest of Africa very easily. Italian ships were less well armored than their British counterparts.
The British should probably have Naval/Air bases on Malta and Gibraltar and at Alexandria. Gibraltar based Force H should be present in some respect as it was formidable; consisting of 2 battleships, the battlecruiser Hood, the carrier Ark Royal, plus 2 cruisers and 11 destroyers. Britain’s eastern Mediterranean force consisted of a couple old battleships and the old carrier Eagle, plus cruisers and auxilliaries.
As for the Russians… well, I do not know. I am quite sure they had some sort of Black Sea fleet at the time, but I am not certain of it’s complement.
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By the way, this is all information based on a June-July 1940 starting setup.
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I think the French fleet will be smaller to show the effects of scuttling it without actually having a scuttling rule.
Italy had 100 more subs??? Why were they never used to sink the British Alexandria fleet when it was at sea?
If Italian ships were less armored, then this may lead to a smaller ship size. Also, I wonder if Taranto is taken account of by making the Italian fleet smaller than normal. Britain should have 1 AC if the Italians have a larger number of battleships.
Here’s what I think:
French Med Fleet: Transport, Destroyer, cruiser(I really doubt they’ll put large ships for France)
Italian Fleet: 1 BB, 2 CA, 2-3 DD, 2 Transports, maybe 1 SS
UK Gibraltar Fleet: 1 Trans(with units in Gibraltar if it exists), Cruiser, Destroyer, maybe a battleship, though I doubt it
UK Alexandria Fleet: 1 BB, 1-2 CA, 2-3 DD, 1-2 Trans, maybe an AC
Black Sea Fleet: Maybe 1 SS, 1 DD, 1 Trans, if it exists at allI agree with the bases on those locations. What do you think about the possibility of bases on Cyprus?
BTW, did you hear about the Med battle where the UK and Italian fleets tried to attack each other, and Italy tried to get its air force to help? The ships didn’t do much damage to each other, and the Italian Air Force thought the Italian ships were British ships and attacked them :lol:
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What I really hope is that the UK fleet will be able to survive round 1, which I think will happen since Germany will only be able to attack by air, and they can’t land in France or the Balkans, and the UK moves before Italy
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I think the French fleet will be smaller to show the effects of scuttling it without actually having a scuttling rule.
Italy had 100 more subs??? Why were they never used to sink the British Alexandria fleet when it was at sea?
If Italian ships were less armored, then this may lead to a smaller ship size. Also, I wonder if Taranto is taken account of by making the Italian fleet smaller than normal. Britain should have 1 AC if the Italians have a larger number of battleships.
Here’s what I think:
French Med Fleet: Transport, Destroyer, cruiser(I really doubt they’ll put large ships for France)
Italian Fleet: 1 BB, 2 CA, 2-3 DD, 2 Transports, maybe 1 SS
UK Gibraltar Fleet: 1 Trans(with units in Gibraltar if it exists), Cruiser, Destroyer, maybe a battleship, though I doubt it
UK Alexandria Fleet: 1 BB, 1-2 CA, 2-3 DD, 1-2 Trans, maybe an AC
Black Sea Fleet: Maybe 1 SS, 1 DD, 1 Trans, if it exists at allI agree with the bases on those locations. What do you think about the possibility of bases on Cyprus?
BTW, did you hear about the Med battle where the UK and Italian fleets tried to attack each other, and Italy tried to get its air force to help? The ships didn’t do much damage to each other, and the Italian Air Force thought the Italian ships were British ships and attacked them :lol:
lol, they should be high tech enough without having too put a big Italian flag.
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i think the UK units in the Med will be far surpassed by their Italain counterparts, numericly.
I predict a UK destroyer, cruiser, carrier combo near gibraltar; a destroyer and transport near Malta; and and a mix of ships on either side of the suez canal consisting of a battlship, 1-2 crusers and 1-2 destroyers
I expect italy to have at least a battleship (more likeley two), 2-3 cruisers and a destroyer and a sub, with associated transports.
The point is….Italy’s fleet will be the dominant force in the Med, hands down. However, it wont be able to seperate itself and remain safe. For two reasons. The first is that it will be less than the sum of its parts if it splits up (without the battleships able to soak up some hits) and if it splits up, then one of the portions gets within striking distance of land based aircraft from egypt or gibraltar.
So for the first few turns expect to see Italy’s large fleet be strong, but forced to stay together for saftey. Therefore restricting its potency. If it has to stay in a group, that limits it to one amphibious nvasion per turn. Unless you send a transport on a suicide mission.
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i think the UK units in the Med will be far surpassed by their Italain counterparts, numericly.
I predict a UK destroyer, cruiser, carrier combo near gibraltar; a destroyer and transport near Malta; and and a mix of ships on either side of the suez canal consisting of a battlship, 1-2 crusers and 1-2 destroyers
I expect italy to have at least a battleship (more likeley two), 2-3 cruisers and a destroyer and a sub, with associated transports.
The point is….Italy’s fleet will be the dominant force in the Med, hands down. However, it wont be able to seperate itself and remain safe. For two reasons. The first is that it will be less than the sum of its parts if it splits up (without the battleships able to soak up some hits) and if it splits up, then one of the portions gets within striking distance of land based aircraft from egypt or gibraltar.
So for the first few turns expect to see Italy’s large fleet be strong, but forced to stay together for saftey. Therefore restricting its potency. If it has to stay in a group, that limits it to one amphibious nvasion per turn. Unless you send a transport on a suicide mission.
Your predicted UK fleet is larger than your predicted Italian fleet
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I think the French fleet will be smaller to show the effects of scuttling it without actually having a scuttling rule.
I don’t understand this. If we’re ignoring the Vichy rule, why can’t we ignore the French naval scuttling either? I understand your concept, but because France’s ground lifespan isn’t going to be very long, at least give them a seizable fleet to work with.
I think the French fleet should be:
1 battleship, 2 cruisers, 3 destroyers, 2 subs, 2 transports
Now it can be argued that we can’t ignore the scuttling for gameplay reasons. Well, if we assume Germany takes over France and bases parts of the Luftwaffe there, we can assume that the French Navy will not be very safe in the Med from the Italian Navy and the Axis air power that will undoubtedly be swooping over the Med. We can assume that the Axis will pretty much be able to strike out at a lot of nearby Allied naval units (like the Japanese can in Pacific) and wipe them out if their dice is lucky.
So, have it similar to oztea’s suggestion: the French Med fleet is moderately powerful, but it needs to stay in a single group to survive or risk getting destroyed by the Axis air force.
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Interesting. I am finding myself agreeing with CalvinHobbesLiker … It has been a previous trend in AA to underrepresent naval forces from what might be expected. For, example, in the old Europe, didn’t the Axis just have one Battleship off of Italy? Plus a transport and a destroyer somewhere in the Med? That doesn’t seem like much when you consider all the ships there (depending on the starting date of the game). Even though this is a bigger game (more territories/sea zones. I guess that I do not expect to see armadas of ships choking the Mediterranean.
If I were to disagree with one thing Calvin said, it was the placement of British units. I think the amounts are nearly right, but I personally would think Calvin’s Alexandria and Gibraltar forces should be switched. Due to the Alexandria force having two older battleships and an older aircraft carrier, I would think they’d get a cruiser, destroyer and a transport (maybe) in Axis and Allies. The Gibraltar force, in my opinion should be stronger; being comprised of newer battleships, the Hood, which was effectively a battleship, plus the Ark Royal (carrier) and support ships. A couple months after France fell, the Brits sent the new carrier Illustrious into the Med also. This being the case, I bet Britain has 1 carrier somewhere in the Atlantic, standing in for both Ark Royal and Illustrious.
I don’t know if I would agree with a reduce French fleet or not. I mean, I agree with Calvin that it is a very likely thing the designers will do. I just don’t know if I like it or not.
I guess that all of the fleet sizes are relative. They will be somehow proportional to each other based on what they were in actuality. I bank on fewer as opposed to more ships, overall on the board. That has been the trend and I don’t see it stopping. It is probably better that way too. If somebody wants to build a huge fleet, let them. But having large amounts of ships at the start of the game leaves little incentive to risk losing them in battle.
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Even if the UK doesn’t survive round one, they have always had more resources than anyone else to rebuild their fleet and make it the one of the most powerful on the board. It has generally been very difficult for Germany to win (in my experience) if they do not destroy the brunt of Allied combat ships on the first turn. Because Germany quickly loses, or loses use of, her navy, and cannot hope to match the UK’s.
As for Italian subs… Yes the book I was reading said “nearly 100 MORE subs than Britain in the Mediterranean”. Which is rather many. I don’t know why they did not sink more British warships. Perhaps they were incompetent. (By the way, this is not the same book that gave me the July 4 date for Mers-el-Kabir… this is from the Time Life World War II series, Volume: The Mediterranean.)
And Calvin: yes I do think I heard about the Italians attacking their own ships… I sort of forgot about that incident. Kind of embarrassing for them. Maybe their sub commanders were suffered from the same problems. Actually I believe I read that Italy was very short on experienced submarine captains and many of their boats were commanded by junior officers. That is one more mark against them which would lead to a reduced sub fleet in the game.
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Yeah, most navies are downsized……except for japan’s. Did Japan really have 3 times as many carriers as the US?
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Yeah, most navies are downsized……except for japan’s. Did Japan really have 3 times as many carriers as the US?
Yeah, I don’t know about that. At the time of Pearl Harbor, the US had 5, maybe 6 (if you count the Ranger), carriers available. And if we speak of 1940 time, I think we can lower that number to a max of 5, because I don’t think the Hornet was totally operational yet. The Japanese had 6 main line carriers in the Pearl Harbor attack alone, plus some escort carriers … plus whatever they had in waters off their Eastern holdings. I am not certain. Japan had large numbers of battleships and cruisers, but even for Japan, I have never seen a setup where they have any more than 2 battleships or 2 Cruisers. Japan only had 2 battleships in Pacific 40 starting setup, correct?
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Yeah, most navies are downsized……except for japan’s. Did Japan really have 3 times as many carriers as the US?
Yeah, I don’t know about that. At the time of Pearl Harbor, the US had 5, maybe 6 (if you count the Ranger), carriers available. And if we speak of 1940 time, I think we can lower that number to a max of 5, because I don’t think the Hornet was totally operational yet. The Japanese had 6 main line carriers in the Pearl Harbor attack alone, plus some escort carriers … plus whatever they had in waters off their Eastern holdings. I am not certain. Japan had large numbers of battleships and cruisers, but even for Japan, I have never seen a setup where they have any more than 2 battleships or 2 Cruisers. Japan only had 2 battleships in Pacific 40 starting setup, correct?
Yeah. Japan starts with 2 BB, 3 AC, 2 CA, 2 SS, 4 DD, 3 Trans
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Just found this (from Imperial Japanes Navy - Wikipedia):
“Japan put particular emphasis on aircraft carriers. The Imperial Japanese Navy started the Pacific War with 10 aircraft carriers, the largest and most modern carrier fleet in the world at that time. There were seven American aircraft carriers at the beginning of hostilities, only three operating in the Pacific; and eight British aircraft carriers, of which a single one operated in the Indian Ocean.”
As a note, Yamato and Musashi were not completed until after 1940.
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Just found this (from Imperial Japanes Navy - Wikipedia):
“Japan put particular emphasis on aircraft carriers. The Imperial Japanese Navy started the Pacific War with 10 aircraft carriers, the largest and most modern carrier fleet in the world at that time. There were seven American aircraft carriers at the beginning of hostilities, only three operating in the Pacific; and eight British aircraft carriers, of which a single one operated in the Indian Ocean.”
As a note, Yamato and Musashi were not completed until after 1940.
Okay. 10 to 3 is about the same as 3 to 1. After Midway, they’d still have 6 carriers.
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@UN:
I think the French fleet will be smaller to show the effects of scuttling it without actually having a scuttling rule.
I don’t understand this. If we’re ignoring the Vichy rule, why can’t we ignore the French naval scuttling either? I understand your concept, but because France’s ground lifespan isn’t going to be very long, at least give them a seizable fleet to work with.
I think the French fleet should be:
1 battleship, 2 cruisers, 3 destroyers, 2 subs, 2 transports
I think this might be appropriate, judging by the historical units, but I believe it would make France too powerful for its role. If France had this substantial of a force, and they combined it with whatever England has or builds… Germany can never hope to destroy them even with combined Italian forces. Germany just has too much else to spend money and planes on, while Italy likely won’t have enough money to start an arms race. The Allies could quickly assemble an extremely powerful fleet that would defy any air or sea attack (short of having loads of heavy bombers). I think such an element would sway game power too much. Especially if France is given transports… then they will be able to conduct multiple amphibious assaults of their own during the game, which I think is a little far fetched.
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@UN:
I think the French fleet will be smaller to show the effects of scuttling it without actually having a scuttling rule.
I don’t understand this. If we’re ignoring the Vichy rule, why can’t we ignore the French naval scuttling either? I understand your concept, but because France’s ground lifespan isn’t going to be very long, at least give them a seizable fleet to work with.
I think the French fleet should be:
1 battleship, 2 cruisers, 3 destroyers, 2 subs, 2 transports
Did you want to say anything to this?
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Yeah, sorry, I just fixed that. See above.
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my point is the UK wont be able to bring both of its mediteranian fleets to bear on Italy at the same time because they are to dispersed. by UK 2 the Italian navy might be a target, but it might be near egypt by then and out of range of the gibraltar fleet.
It will be a game of cat and mouse in the med, well 2 small cats and one big rat.
Italys fleet will be able to crush EITHER the Egypt fleet, or the Gibraltar fleet. But not both without more support. With that knowledge, the UK player will keep his 2 smaller (smaller than the italian fleet) fleets out of range of the Italain fleet, but in doing so will be out of range to attack the Italian fleet in unison with both of his fleets.UK 1 BB, 1 CA, 1 DD Egypt SZ + 1 AC, 1 CA, 1 DD Gibraltar SZ + 1 DD Malta SZ (associated land based air units)
Italy 2 BB, 2 CA, 2-3 DD, 1 SS Southern Italy SZ (associated land based air units) -
Hey chaps,
I think some of the numbers of units mentioned here is too high. Regardless of the historical numbers on each side, the numbers of units in the Med (and in the game in general) will be in relation to:
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the number of units in AAP40
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their relative success in the war
Therefore, even if the Italians had many submarines (mostly coastal vessels I suspect), because they failed utterly to use them effectively in real life AND we must keep proportions stable with the Japanese and the US Pacific fleets, I believe we will see fewer units. My guess is:
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France: 1 CA, 1 Transport
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UK Gibraltar: 1 CV + air, 1 BB, 1 DD
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UK Malta: 1 Sub
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UK Egypt: 1 BB, 1 CA
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Italy: 1 BB, 1 CA, 1 DD, 1 Sub, 1 Transport
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Germany: -
Cheers,
Lozza007
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