• Moderator

    As you may or may not know, Switch is stepping down as Tournament Admin once the 1-1 is done, so in order to make sure we have a smooth transition I’d like to kick off the discussion now.

    I figure we’ll get more reads here then the thread in the tourney section:

    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=11301.0

    Tentative schedule is for the 2-2 to start Sept. 1.

    I’d just like to hear everyones thoughts for ideas, changes, etc.

    Also, discussion of a summer Tech/NA tourney has been brought up int he past, but given the response (or lack there of) from this thread:

    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=11637.0

    I’m assuming that a summer tourney may be dead.

    Thoughts?


  • Even if I were a better player, I still don’t think I would want to get in on a summer tourney, as who really wants to be cooped up inside all day long when it’s + 30 C out and gorgeous weather. Unless of course you bring your computer outside.  :wink: But yeah, I don’t think I’m interested in a summer tourney.


  • its winter in this hemisphere  :-D

    I’d be in for any tourney


  • I don’t use all the day to do my moves.

    And here in south Spain is about 50º C in summer (at sun, there are few shadows) … unless you go on holidays to the coast, is better keep at home with the refrigeration  :-D

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Summer is surprisingly busy for me, September is going to be a lot easier for me to meet posting requirements.


  • I am going to post this…  feel free to ignore it if y’all choose to do so.

    The Tournaments need to be headed by ONE person.  That person needs to have virtually unlimited power in terms of making decisions in the Tournament WITHIN THE RULES.

    There does need to be a back-up person, someone to handle games in with the Tournament Admin is a participant (if applicable), and as a final appeal by the players if they disagree with a ruling.

    And the Tournament Admin needs to be someone that can handle the pressure…  I have done 7 Tournaments, and that is all I could handle.

    Personally, I think that the BEST course of action would be to take the current Tournament Rules…  Work out the couple of bugs that were uncovered in the Spring Singles 2008 Tournament, and then have a single person, preferably a non-participant in the the Tournament, Admin the next Tournament under those rules.

    We have had 7 successful Tournaments using the standard that I laid out in 2006.  There have been a few issues along the way, most of them related to me also being a participant in Tournaments.

    Do not throw out the baby with the bathwater…  stick with what had been proven to work, and find the right person to Admin the Tournaments.


  • [Bill Adama] “So say we all.” [Bill Adama/]


  • summer doesnt seem like a best solution

    maybe we should held this tournament in autumn.

    probably we wont have more than 8 players so the tourn. wont be that long

    8 player sistem is the best for us

  • Moderator

    There will be NO summer tourney, as there appears to be no interest in the proposed NA-Tech Tourney.

    The next tourney scheduled is the 2-2, tentative start 9/1, sign-up probably in Aug.

    In all likelyhood I’ll be admining the tourneys.  I may institute a “tournament committee” or something that will help with rules questions.  IE “what happens if I place a German Sub in Sz 5….” etc.
    They may potentially be the arbitors of a game (prior to the dice roll off).  Please note:  I’m still thinking this over and how it may work.  This would replace the one moderator under the Admin.

    Now to the main issue, time constraits.  I know players have voiced their issues in the past, but I’ll ask you to please do so again here WITH potential alternatives.  I don’t want to see “the 24 hr rule needs to go” with no Alt suggested, or the 28 day limit sucks but no offering of an alternative.

    I read over the rules and most of the others are going to stay as is.

    I have no problem continuing with Switch’s rules as is (including time issues), but now is the time to offer ideas.


  • @DarthMaximus:

    In all likelyhood I’ll be admining the tourneys.  I may institute a “tournament committee” or something that will help with rules questions.  IE “what happens if I place a German Sub in Sz 5….” etc.

    well, i suggest someone if he wants to take the place afcorse  :mrgreen:  Krieg  :mrgreen:


  • If Kreig is willing, he would be an ideal candidate for any rule appeal issues…

    Not sure if he would have time for more than that limited role though…


  • @ncscswitch:

    If Kreig is willing, he would be an ideal candidate for any rule appeal issues…

    Not sure if he would have time for more than that limited role though…

    well, Darth would be the Tourn. Admini.

    Krieg would ˝only˝ resolve ˝rule unclarifications˝ issue.

    and afcorse he would be a logical choice for an arbitar if DM is involved in the game(by playing)

    but, he neceserally even wouldnd have to. its of great help for us that he takes the rule issue, some of us can mediate for Darths game/s

    :mrgreen:

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Time Requirements:

    I know this will make tournaments LONGER, but such is life.  Here’s what I think would work:

    General Policy:  Try to take your turns in as timely a fashion as possible.

    General Rule:  Players will be permitted to have two, three day extensions to permit them time to complete their moves.  Players will be expected to post one country turn (USA/USSR is counted as one country, not two for the purposes of this rule) every 30 hours. (Not a typo.  Sometimes you post in the afternoon and the other person needs time to get home after work.  This will give players a full day to realize a post has been made, review the new map, think about their response, and get back to post their response.)

    • General Rule Amendment:  If both players agree to a longer extension, before the extension is implemented, and they notify the tournament moderator prior to 24 hours before the extension is started, then a longer period of time can be implemented of up to, but not exceeding, one standard week. (As defined from 12:00AM Sunday to 11:59PM the following Saturday.  As an example, or in other words 168 hours, not a minute more.)

  • @Cmdr:

    Time Requirements:

    I know this will make tournaments LONGER, but such is life.  Here’s what I think would work:

    General Policy:  Try to take your turns in as timely a fashion as possible.

    General Rule:  Players will be permitted to have two, three day extensions to permit them time to complete their moves.  Players will be expected to post one country turn (USA/USSR is counted as one country, not two for the purposes of this rule) every 30 hours. (Not a typo.  Sometimes you post in the afternoon and the other person needs time to get home after work.  This will give players a full day to realize a post has been made, review the new map, think about their response, and get back to post their response.)

    • General Rule Amendment:  If both players agree to a longer extension, before the extension is implemented, and they notify the tournament moderator prior to 24 hours before the extension is started, then a longer period of time can be implemented of up to, but not exceeding, one standard week. (As defined from 12:00AM Sunday to 11:59PM the following Saturday.  As an example, or in other words 168 hours, not a minute more.)

    I really don’t agree with the 2 to 3 day extension. That would just drag the game out to such a point where the next round would be pushed back even farther. You could potentially have one group still slowly chugging along still in the first round while others have moved on to the 2nd and even 3rd rounds. Too much time or leeway would just make getting into a groove just impossible in my opinion. Two days max maybe, but I still feel, sometimes, that the 24-hour rule is still one of the better rules here to help us.


  • Jennifer may have a point on the 2-3 day delay…

    Previously, we have allowed a single delay of up to 1 week in a Tournament (25% of the allocated time).

    Breaking that into 2 breaks of up to 3 days reduces the overall time off, but still allows a player to take up to a 1 week vacation (24 hour standard posting limit, plus 2 3-day breaks taken back to back)

    And as much as it pains me to say it, allowing 6 weeks instead of 4 for games (42 days instead of 28) would virtually eliminate the need for tie-breakers.  The concern there of course is that this will stretch out the Spring Tournament (which has been averaging 5 rounds for the past couple of years) to EIGHT MONTHS counting 2 weeks for registration.  If registration begins at New Years, and 1st dice is January 15, the Tournament will not be over until the end of August…

    I do not think the change from 24 hours to 30 hours is needed.  Most people are on about the same time each day.  So you log on, post a move, and go about your life.  Sometime after that your opponent logs on at their normal time and posts their move.  When the first player logs back in at their normal time, they will still have time to post their move.


  • I do think that one other change to the tie breaker needs to be implemented.

    At present, there is no consideration of the IPC advantage that one side or the other may have recently gained.  That is a serious advantage in a long term game that is not figured in to the current tie breaker format.

    In order to allow for the most recent IPC gains to be figured in to the tie breaker match, I think that, in addition to the purchase of remaining units through the US turn, that EVERY nation should then have 1 more purchase of units based on their cash on hand.  This will allow IPC gains in the roung immediately prior to the tie breaker to be figured in to the final dice rolls, without giving it too much weight since those gains could potentially be reversed by the other side.

    Thus if the game ends with the UK’s move, Japan and USA would have their cash on hand bought out as INF, with extra being used to upgrade a unit to ART or ARM.  THEN every nation would buy INF (again with extra cash being used to upgrade INF to ART or ARM), for one final complete round of purchases.

    That will figure in the IPC advantage that either side may have at the time that time expires.

  • 2007 AAR League

    Why is there a problem with the “24 hour move rule”? If someone is having a problem with being able to post 1 turn every other day then they have my heartfelt congratulations that they have a life and should not be entering a tourney that would interfere with said life. How dare you have a life and then want to interfere with my non-life by modifying the tourney rules to suit yourself?

    And now for a possible solution.

    Keep the “24 hour move rule” initially. Since 1 game round must be completed every 4 days at minimum, mark each round on the day they must be started by(Illustration below). A game that starts on the 1st should have round 2 start on the 5th, round 3 on the 9th, etc. The “24 hour rule” automatically kicks in only if your game is in the middle of a particular round when it’s start date rolls around. So if your game is in R3, G3, UK3, J3, or US3 on the 9th of the month(start of round 3) then the “24 hour rule” kicks in again until your game moves to round 4.

    1st- Russia
    2nd- Germany
    3rd- UK
    4th- Japan
    5th- US/Russia (Round 2 starts)
    6th-Germany
    7th- UK
    8th- Japan
    9th- US/Russia (round 3 starts)

    But you must have your opponents approval to break the “24 hour move rule” even if your game is ahead of the time limit. That way you can bank “free” days if your game moves fast but it prevents one person from just stopping the game and burning all of the free days without their opponent agreeing to it. So if you know that you will need a day or 2 or even a week later in the month, you can play quickly early and save up those days that you might need off.

    This also allows us to end the games on the 25th(minimum US6) with about a week off for relaxation, extensions, and judgements. That way, once any game reaches the end of round 6 before the 25th of the month, as long as both players agree to it, the rest of the game can be played at their leisure without having to worry about the 24 hour rule.

    I would suggest that all games that go to judgement should end on the US turn, though, for the sake of fairness.

  • Moderator

    I think more than the 24 hr rule the time idea of early starts or 4 weeks not be enough might be more of an issue.

    I do like your idea U-505 and will definitely consider a 24 hr per turn or X-rounds per week or something.  I know it has been brought up that some players have more time on a weekend and can bust out several rounds from Fri night thru Sun night esp with TripleA, but during the week they may struggle.  So I may look at that.  The 24 hr rule would remain but maybe add an addendum to allow for “resonable progess” or weekend players.

    Right now I’m leaning towards 5 weeks per game with one week break/judgment time (so 6 total weeks), but allowing early starts (meaning “extra” time to play with no per turn limit etc. until official time) if enough people have already advanced.

    So that would mean for the 1-1 with 32 players:
    Rd 1 - Starts Jan. 15
    Rd 2 - Starts Mar. 1
    Rd 3 - Starts Apr. 15
    Rd 4 - Starts June. 1
    Rd 5 - Starts July. 15

    So the final would probably end in Aug.  That would be worst case, but with some early starts we could probably get a July finish and I haven’t looked at the '09 calender so the dates will be adjusted so I can probably shave off a few more days here and there and get the final to start in June so we get a June finish or July.

    I’ll have to think about it more, but I may consider shutting off the game limit entirely for the semi-finals and finals.  It is one thing to lose in rd 1 or 2 on a dice roll but once you hit the top 4 I’m really leaning towards letting the games come to a natural conclusion.  Or perhaps having a potental review/judgement come a little later.  But I’m still think about that.


  • @DarthMaximus:

    I do like your idea U-505 and will definitely consider a 24 hr per turn or X-rounds per week or something.  I know it has been brought up that some players have more time on a weekend and can bust out several rounds from Fri night thru Sun night esp with TripleA, but during the week they may struggle.  So I may look at that.

    I think minimum time per round is better for the players as well as the moderators.

    @DarthMaximus:

    but I may consider shutting off the game limit entirely for the semi-finals and finals.

    This is also a good idea.  Most tourneys the I have been involved in have at least the final match without time limit.


  • The problem with the per turn instead of per move time limit…

    You allow 5 days for a turn.
    The Axis player waits 4 1/2 days then posts their Germany move.

    Now the Allies have to go twice, and the axis once, in 12 hours, or the game gets a delay notice… most likely against the Allied player who’s turn would be due next eventhough it was the Axis player who chewed up nearly all of the 5 day time limit for the turn.

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