• Airplanes don’t seem to be a real threat to surface ships or land units unless the airplane is unopposed or it is a small surface fleet.

    In most pitched battles most airplanes seem to be wiped out in the air phase, airplanes seem to stand little chance vs the AA and CAP over a fleet. Any good size fleet with CAP is darn near impossible to attack and to score any points you must attack it with your own ships. Ships are the threat to other ships.

    If player one spreads his aircraft about the board, player 2 can concentrate his where he needs them the most. Thus in our games player 1 seems to concentrate his FF’s over the fleet he wants to protect, if player 2 wants to interdict that fleet he must concentrate his aircraft and soon whoosh… no more aircraft.

    Airplanes are not either the attack or defense piece they are in other A&A games.


  • Actually the guy I usually play with is having some trouble in that regard to this game. He is used to fighters being FIGHTERS and the fact that they seem to be getting chewed up faster than infantry kind of bothers him. A lot of games of Revised end with nearly as many fighters on the board as there were at the start of the game. GCNL can see practically every fighter on the board wiped out every turn.

    Your description is pretty much how the aircraft have been used in our games so far.

    We have had a couple of air phases though where one side gets hammered and the other side comes through mostly unscathed and that is an ugly day for the fleet below. The Fighters seem to be the straw that can tip the battle. They aren’t the muscle like they are in Revised perhaps but you can’t ignore them. Proper use of aircraft alone won’t win the game for you but improper use of them will sure as heck lose it.


  • Yep, I can remember the old A&A games of my past where fighters made you think before you attacked. My son came home from college and we played AAG for the first time, he is a moderately good A&A game player and the first airbattle we waged after the role of the battlebox was ended his eyes were wide opened while surveying his attack force down in flames and splashed. Of course he was equally shocked that my CAP was also obliterated. Seriously, he was quiet for quite some time and it took him a while to adjust.

    I guess the scale of the game is the issue ,in classic A&A and revised a fighter stands for a lot of fighters in this game they clearly stand for a lot less.

    He like I was shocked at the attrition rate of aircraft. Oh well… I still like the sweeping air and sea battles this game offers


  • @legion3:

    Airplanes don’t seem to be a real threat to surface ships or land units unless the airplane is unopposed or it is a small surface fleet.

    In most pitched battles most airplanes seem to be wiped out in the air phase, airplanes seem to stand little chance vs the AA and CAP over a fleet. Any good size fleet with CAP is darn near impossible to attack and to score any points you must attack it with your own ships. Ships are the threat to other ships.

    If player one spreads his aircraft about the board, player 2 can concentrate his where he needs them the most. Thus in our games player 1 seems to concentrate his FF’s over the fleet he wants to protect, if player 2 wants to interdict that fleet he must concentrate his aircraft and soon whoosh… no more aircraft.

    Airplanes are not either the attack or defense piece they are in other A&A games.

    Sound very familar to me.
    I have learned the hard way that I shouldn’t attack a little fleet two DD that escorting some transports, shielded by three fighter with my own air units. You have to bring to much planes to get some hits on the ships.
    I came in with two bombers and four fighters, lost one bomber and two fighters and got only one hit to the ships. Hit a DD with a 2. Ok, I kill the three enemy fighters, but the overall effort was nearly none. :(

    I’m still a little bit uncertain about that three attack phase ruleset. On the one hand it is logical and brings a lot of game fun, on the other side it is very frustrating that even a big airforce of many bombers and fighters can’t do much damage to medium fleet because most of the airplanes are wiped out before come to attack.
    Remember that big air battles in WW2: sinking of Prince of Wales and Repulse, the battle in the Coral Sea, the battle of Midway, the sinking of Yamato and Musashi: All done by aircraft.


  • Defending with CAP and naval AA fire during the air attack phase is the problem. Planes had to run both gauntlets but not usually at the same time.

    In the airphase only airplanes should be involved, true airbattles, attackers either driven off or busting through the cap. Simulating the dogfights high above or away from the fleet.

    Then planes left attack the fleet, score hits, but ships then fire back and score hits on planes.

    So an intermediate phase is needed to adjust the airphase balance.

    Just a thought.

    Still love the game but airplanes are units you can’t do without but can’t do much with, except destroy other aircraft.


  • The planes are handled differently.  They fly out without having to find a place to land until the return phase.  You’re ships are the mainstay so the planes are sent out ahead or they arrive at the same location as the fleet.  Their main goal is to either bomb the airfield, or add extra points to the rolls in a naval fight.  In real life, the planes were the first to arrive during a fight rather than naval bombardment which is why they were shot up first.  Most planes were damaged during engagement and not many bombers were seen there.  Also, this engagement took days, not months, so there is no CAP, and all movement is directly involved.  Destroyers, fighters, and infantry are disposable, remember that.


  • I fear them - well, the bombers at any rate.

    I have played a few times where the decision to push a fleet into the slot was based on the number of planes an opponent could bring to bear. With an massive air battle killing equal numbers on both sides, it is a huge advantage to air strike an opponents fleet. during the sea attack he shoots at nothing while the remaining air units get attacks in.

    Look at the economics of the question “how shall i kill my opponents navy”

    fighters and destroyers exert 1 point on surface ships - but at a cost of 3 to 5
    bombers and cruisers exert 2 points on surface ships - but at a cost of 5 to 7.
    (not to mention the ADDED COST of getting the slower moving ships into the fight as fast as aircraft can.)

    the only way airplanes are NOT to be feared is if used in small batches that can be shot down w/o use of air cover.


  • I am confused about what you are saying. In many battles their are no remaining air units during the sea attack phase as the combined CAP and AA from the ships is usually devestating to fly through.  :?

    Even a huge airfleet may or may not get any hits on the ships below. Heck I would steam a fleet straight down the slot and dare you to air attack it.

    airplanes need a 1 for a kill and 2 for a damage rating such as capital ships.


  • I think our Rodent Of Unusual Size :-) left a few parts out of his analysis. Fighters get shot down and don’t come back while a Destroyer can be repaired but FTRs have better AA and a land attack. Then add in the better range for FTRs but that Destroyers can move ground untis and supplies and it is a bit of a wash isn’t it?

    Similarly with Bombers and Cruisers, Bombers getting the better range and an additional land attack dice but sacrificing the ability to be repaired and contributing to control of islands.

    There might not be much left after the Air Attack phase but without Fighter intercept a combined air force will get some bombers thru to the sea battle and those extra dice will make a difference.

    As I mentioned earlier the Air Force alone won’t win the game but mismanagement of the skies will lose it. A combined arms force is called for in this one.


  • If you are not intercepted! But if the player who moves his aircraft second (unless he has none) will (or should) intercept any airfleet large enough to damage a fleet. The second player has the advantage in aircraft usage (again unless he does not have any) as he knows how to respond. Aircraft range seems somewhat irrelvent to the seabattles, most aircraft have the range to reach almost any sea zone with carriers. Island spaces are a bit more dicey.

    Given the way casualties are handled…maybe some bombers get through maybe not.

    You almost have to have airplanes in this game as you say Frimmel but they are now expendable infantry of the skies as Maarek stated.

    sorry, until one of our games has aircraft wipe out a fleet, I just don’t fear them. One game was a blowout do to the US losing all their aircraft, while the Japanese lost none, but this was do to the dice gods…and has not been repeated.


  • There are several interesting comments and I think we are in substantial agreement that fighters are not the factor in AAG as they are in AAR.  I can’t speak to other A&A games because I don’t have them.

    First regarding a comment on scale … This version is strange.  Carriers are still carrying two aircraft units so I would think the units are about the same scale, but they definately don’t have the same punch.  Could it be that time as changed scale in this game and this has an effect?  Guadalcanal is a small place compared to Europe or Asia, but I still see ‘stacks’ of infantry and artillery in AAG.  Granted, these stacks are five or seven deep, and the AAR stacks are twice that, but this is nothing compared to the scale of the two theatres.

    I see the battle box as the factor that has changed everything.  We no longer have stacks of infantry to absorb the blows to let our fighters eat away at the enemy on a 50% chance of killing an enemy.  Now the fighters have only a 17% chance of killing a destroyer with a 17% bonus chance of at least damaging him.  AND they have to survive the air combat phase just to get that chance.  It is a massive change from what we are accustomed.

    For my part, I see bombers as the real strike aircraft and fighters as bomber escorts.  With an abundance of fighters, your bombers chances of getting hit are 33% due to the battle box arrangement.  However, it doesn’t appear wise to attack a substantial fleet with aircraft alone.  The additional AA capacity of ships will make it hurt.  If you are bringing your ships along, at least he will feel the same pain.  No, the air threat appears to be notable when sending a small force to drop off supplies and reinforcements.  Two or three destroyers added to a convoy of transports is a tasty target if the enemy is within range of four adequately escorted bombers.  Now the tide can be turned against them.  If you don’t get some really bad dice in the air phase, you start sinking loaded(!) transports.  These supply expeditions need CAP and this is one reason you need fighters in abundance.  You can’t send your fleet CAP everywhere, so you have to choose.

    And there is the invasion itself.  Adding fighters and bombers to the ground assault is a major factor if the enemy hasn’t dug in and added AA guns.  The problem is there are not may places where you can bring that many bombers to the fight because of range restrictions.  Finally, the big gamble bombing mission on the enemy airfield is always good for some excitement at the end of the game.  On the whole, it is a game with good play balance and a lot of tension because time is running out from the first turn.  I hope y’all enjoy it as much as I do.


  • But are they really escorts?
    The way the battlebox, wrap around hits occur, it is conceivable that an attack with fighters and  bombers may end up with only fighters left over.

    And the effort may not be any sunk ships just damaged ones. Good thing airplanes are cheap. If they cost standard AA prices…would you buy very many?

    Airplanes alone are not much of a threat to ships. Even without CAP the ships can throw up a lot of AA fire. With CAP they are really protected. Even a resupply DD scooting along alone swarmed by fighters is not guaranteed to be sunk.

    Still I like the game even with airplanes and subs as they are. It just takes some getting used to.


  • Well, I consider fighters as bomber escorts for the following reason: With fighters the chances to lose a bomber is reduced by two-thirds.  The battle box has four slots for fighters and then two for bombers.  Yes, a direct hit on a bomber does kill it and the fighters didn’t change that, but, consider that with only one fighter and one bomber, the attacker has to roll a hit on his fifth or sixth die to score that (direct) hit.  Heck he even has to roll at least five dice to get that chance (of scoring a direct hit).  If he rolls four or less, he can’t hit an escorted bomber without killing the fighter first.  The odds are much improved for bombers when fighters are sent as escorts.  Just don’t send them at a fleet alone.


  • You are not counting hits properly.

    All the defender has to do is score 2 hits with his first two dice or any combination of hits and both planes the fighter and bomber are gone. All hits are a hit… the hit still counts, but will hit a different unit type of that catagory.  A hit on a bomber does not occur only if the 5 or 6 die is a hit.

    The hits keep on coming in this game.

    All hits hit something and you do not have to roll 5 or more dice to hit a bomber.

    To use your example a Bomber and a fighter attack two destroyers, all the DD’s have to roll is two dice, if those two dice are both ones or two’s both planes are shot down…not just the fighter. the hit on the second fighter wraps around until you find a unit that can take the hit…the bomber.

    See page 18 Topic Hitting Units you Enemy doesn’t have.



  • @legion3:

    You are not counting hits properly.

    All the defender has to do is score 2 hits with his first two dice or any combination of hits and both planes the fighter and bomber are gone. All hits are a hit… the hit still counts, but will hit a different unit type of that catagory.  A hit on a bomber does not occur only if the 5 or 6 die is a hit.

    The hits keep on coming in this game.

    All hits hit something and you do not have to roll 5 or more dice to hit a bomber.

    To use your example a Bomber and a fighter attack two destroyers, all the DD’s have to roll is two dice, if those two dice are both ones or two’s both planes are shot down…not just the fighter. the hit on the second fighter wraps around until you find a unit that can take the hit…the bomber.

    See page 18 Topic Hitting Units you Enemy doesn’t have.

    You are correct and dinosaur is wrong about neccessarily needing five dice (counting hits somewhat incorrectly in his example) but right that more fighters will protect bombers.

    More fighters increase the number of dice you need to hit a bomber. Your destroyers with their two dice will have less chance of hitting the bomber if there are more fighters right? 2 fighters and the bomber against the two dice from the destroyers would be unable to get thru the fighter screen correct?

    Even against just the fighter and bomber you need both dice to hit. Only one hit can only get a fighter. Until my opponent has more than four dice I can protect bombers by matching Air Attack dice with fighters. The more fighters the more protection from wraparound hits for the bombers.

  • Official Q&A

    @frimmel:

    @legion3:

    You are not counting hits properly.

    All the defender has to do is score 2 hits with his first two dice or any combination of hits and both planes the fighter and bomber are gone. All hits are a hit… the hit still counts, but will hit a different unit type of that catagory.  A hit on a bomber does not occur only if the 5 or 6 die is a hit.

    The hits keep on coming in this game.

    All hits hit something and you do not have to roll 5 or more dice to hit a bomber.

    To use your example a Bomber and a fighter attack two destroyers, all the DD’s have to roll is two dice, if those two dice are both ones or two’s both planes are shot down…not just the fighter. the hit on the second fighter wraps around until you find a unit that can take the hit…the bomber.

    See page 18 Topic Hitting Units you Enemy doesn’t have.

    You are correct and dinosaur is wrong about neccessarily needing five dice (counting hits somewhat incorrectly in his example) but right that more fighters will protect bombers.

    I’m not sure Dinosaur is really wrong.  I think he just may not have stated the situation clearly:

    @dinosaur:

    Well, I consider fighters as bomber escorts for the following reason: With fighters the chances to lose a bomber is reduced by two-thirds.  The battle box has four slots for fighters and then two for bombers.  Yes, a direct hit on a bomber does kill it and the fighters didn’t change that, but, consider that with only one fighter and one bomber, the attacker has to roll a hit on his fifth or sixth die to score that hit.  Heck he even has to roll at least five dice to get that chance.  If he rolls four or less, he can’t hit an escorted bomber without killing the fighter first.

    I think he meant that the attacker has to roll at least five dice in order to have a chance to hit a bomber directly.  Otherwise, he can’t hit a bomber without hitting all of the escorting fighters first.  This is true.  Of course, I may be misinterpreting his statement.

    @frimmel:

    More fighters increase the number of dice you need to hit a bomber. Your destroyers with their two dice will have less chance of hitting the bomber if there are more fighters right? 2 fighters and the bomber against the two dice from the destroyers would be unable to get thru the fighter screen correct?

    Correct.

    @frimmel:

    Even against just the fighter and bomber you need both dice to hit. Only one hit can only get a fighter. Until my opponent has more than four dice I can protect bombers by matching Air Attack dice with fighters. The more fighters the more protection from wraparound hits for the bombers.

    Right again!


  • @dinosaur:

    Yes, a direct hit on a bomber does kill it and the fighters didn’t change that, but, consider that with only one fighter and one bomber, the attacker has to roll a hit on his fifth or sixth die to score that hit.  Heck he even has to roll at least five dice to get that chance.  If he rolls four or less, he can’t hit an escorted bomber without killing the fighter first.   The odds are much improved for bombers when fighters are sent as escorts.  Just don’t send them at a fleet alone.

    With only 1 FtF and 1 Bmb he does not have to roll a hit on his fifth or sixth die to score a hit. It seems to me he feels the 5 and 6 slot on the battlebox is the only way to hit a bomber and it clearly is not.

    I understand that as you add fighters the enemy force would need to add dice in order to hit the bombers but really how often is your enemy only going to have 4 dice?

    And again to stress the weakness of aircraft you could have all your fighters destroyed, get your bombers through, make your attacks and still hit nothing or just damage a few things. C’est la guerre.

    Air attacks without sea power in support seems to have big risk, little gain.


  • Krieghund, thanks for coming to my defense.  I must apologize for not being more careful.  However, I am very often accused of being tiresome when I spell out every single thought necessary to make my point.  Although, it appears in my haste to edit my own post, I made a mistake.  I fear that if I make the whole of my case I will be considered tiresome.  So, in brief let me say …

    Yes my main point is that with fighters, bombers enjoy a special one-third protection in general.  With small numbers of aircraft, which would most likely be used against only small numbers of AA dice, the benefit is often even better.  In my example with one fighter and one bomber, against one die, the bomber is of course immune to AA.  Against two AA dice, the bomber is only at risk 11.1% of the time.  Against three AA dice, the bomber is only at risk 7/27 of the time, still less than one-third.  Against four dice the odds put the bomber at risk 33/81 of the time, which is now slightly more than one-third.  Against five dice, the odds for the bomber drop quickly because now the bomber has a direct chance of getting stung by the fifth die.  And six dice is only worse.  But regardless of the number of dice, the chances of a bomber getting whacked drops substantially, even if you add only one fighter.  More fighters only makes things better.

    My point is that fighters clearly improve the effectiveness of bombers to deliver damage on the enemy.  In general, the battle box indicates this to be a drop to about one-third the chances of getting eaten by AA, but specific numbers of attack dice and fighter escorts will have some effect on the real odds in a particular battle.

    I recognize the names of the folks in this thread as notable contributors to the forum.  I hope I have not given offense while defending my thesis on the merits of using fighters in conjunction with bombers.

    edit:  After reading the questioned post, I feel I was clearer than I was credited.  I did state, and was later highlighted in italics, that you need to kill the fighter first when rolling less than five dice.  This is exactly what others went on to illustrate in their challenges, that two hits would kill the bomber, which is what I said in my own words.


  • I certainly don’t need convinced on the merits of escorts.  :-)

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