Well I like an American Pacific offensive more and more because I find that Japan cannot keep pace in the fleet wars and build up a land force to threaten Moscow at the same time. Either it loses the fleet battle (which means Japan will lose half its income) or it can only send a token force against the Russians. So I go Pacific whenever I can. But if USA starts with a disadvantage in the Pacific (this will be most games), it is not the best strategy. The best players will adapt their strategy to what is happening in the game.
KJF etc.
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I started playing A&A 4th ed. revised in the triplea lobby couple of months ago.
Had a steep learning curve :-DI never seen a “true” KJF. And by that I mean “cripple japan first”, or “contain japan first”.
To kill Tokyo before Berlin is not possible if both players are on the same level.
I never seen a game Japan didn’t take India, and so a UK IC in India is certain to make allies lose.
I’m not sure if all players here play by the same rules…?
In the lobby it’s usually bid down for axis, or 8-9 bids for axis. TTL, no tech. Dice or low luck depends.
I play both reg dice and LL, but I prefer LL.
There are a few strats that works, and a few more that don’t.
KJF is one that doesn’t work against decent players.
I’m not saying it’s impossible, but it seems like KJF will lose 9 out of 10 times.
I didn’t see any good plans for KJF to win the game for allies in this forum…
Probably because no one has ever succeded in making gameplan for KJF strat that actually WORKS :-) -
I started playing A&A 4th ed. revised in the triplea lobby couple of months ago.
Had a steep learning curve :-DI never seen a “true” KJF. And by that I mean “cripple japan first”, or “contain japan first”.
To kill Tokyo before Berlin is not possible if both players are on the same level.
I never seen a game Japan didn’t take India, and so a UK IC in India is certain to make allies lose.
I’m not sure if all players here play by the same rules…?
In the lobby it’s usually bid down for axis, or 8-9 bids for axis. TTL, no tech. Dice or low luck depends.
I play both reg dice and LL, but I prefer LL.
There are a few strats that works, and a few more that don’t.
KJF is one that doesn’t work against decent players.
I’m not saying it’s impossible, but it seems like KJF will lose 9 out of 10 times.
I didn’t see any good plans for KJF to win the game for allies in this forum…
Probably because no one has ever succeded in making gameplan for KJF strat that actually WORKS :-)Certain things have to occur before I will venture into a KJF allied game plan.
Mainly KGF has to look harder than KJF. By this I mean KGF is usually alot easier for the allies to achieve. If Germany does well G1 and buys all inf/ground units… it might be easier to KJF.
It’s easier to contain Germany… they can only get so far.
You also have to set up Russia to be flexible to go either way after G1. This is a delicate balance. I think this is why you do not see many KJF being run. You can certainly set-up to do an excellent KJF R1, but you’ll most likely tip your hand and then Germany can do things to prevent (make it not such a good allied strategy).
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KJF for me is the starting play with Allies
or KJF which turn to attacking both Axis powersi dislike playin KGF since i somehow dont like to give Japan that much space that is given in many games
but i make lots of mistakes while playing so the KJF strategy hadnt been truly played :cry:
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To me it seems like UK+Russia is not enough to conquer Germany on their own.
And US alone takes much to long to slow Japan down.
I’ve never seen US take Jap islands. Japan only has to buy one more AC and the pacific is closed 8-)
I’ve seen US landing in SFE, even done it myself, but it didn’t have any impact :-(
But there are lots of different tactics to use even within a strict KGF strat.Some says the game always turns out the same, but I don’t agree.
Most players who are somewhat experienced will gain with Jap anyway, there seems to be nothing to stop
Japan from reaching 42-45 ipc, rnd 4-5.
Most games is the same type of race, who comes first, Japan to Moscow, or allies to Berlin?
But there are lots of different ways to victory, and I’ve been thinking some new tactics lately :roll: -
Probably because no one has ever succeded in making gameplan for KJF strat that actually WORKS :-)
OMG. Where is my rubber chicken?
OH WAIT THERE IT IS!
(smacks you with the rubber chicken)
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Taking into account that 4 nations precede America’s turn, here is a KJF that seems to work (if you are looking for Slow Japan First, which is what you asked for.)
1) 6 Russian Infantry in Buryatia
2) 4 Russian Infantry, 1 Armor in Sinkiang
3) British Fleet unification in SZ 30
4) British Retreat from India to Persia
5) British Bomber to Caucasus
6) British landing in Algeria
7) American IC in Sinkiang
8) American Air Force in Buryatia (hopefully after sinking the SZ 60 fleet, if it is vulnerable.)From here you can take East Indies with England or do massive damage to the Japanese fleet and air force attacking your fleet in SZ 30. (Sometimes I’ll take 2 Inf from India and 2 Inf from Australia to tempted Japan into hitting my SZ 30 fleet!)
Also, you can build Americans directly in Sinkiang while the russians protect you until you have secured China. (Build another IC in China with America, move Russians in to defend it.)
England can put an IC in India if it can take and hold it a round. If not, you might want to put one in E. Indies. You DO have two transports down there, might be worth it.
Anyway, the goal here is to sink the Japanese fleet primarily. Once that’s gone, you can prevent them from building a new fleet and pick up some islands along the way.
The risks are the early fall of Russia, loss of Africa, maybe Brazil to Germany, reduced income usage in E. USA/England to annoy Germany with.
The pay off is an England earning 40+ IPC and an America earning 40+ IPC with large production ability in SE Asia. (IC’s in Sink, China, FIC, India, Manchuria and maybe Kwangtung after all is said and done.) More then enough to take out Germany, even if Moscow falls.
Remember, the allies start with the money, all they have to do is keep it and take out Japan’s outside territories. Even if Germany gets Russia, the Allies will out produce them and, eventually, be able to push them back. (Defending Europe and Asia is too hard against England and America with no Japanese distractions.)
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To me it seems like UK+Russia is not enough to conquer Germany on their own.
And US alone takes much to long to slow Japan down.
I’ve never seen US take Jap islands. Japan only has to buy one more AC and the pacific is closed 8-)
I’ve seen US landing in SFE, even done it myself, but it didn’t have any impact :-(
But there are lots of different tactics to use even within a strict KGF strat.Some says the game always turns out the same, but I don’t agree.
Most players who are somewhat experienced will gain with Jap anyway, there seems to be nothing to stop
Japan from reaching 42-45 ipc, rnd 4-5.
Most games is the same type of race, who comes first, Japan to Moscow, or allies to Berlin?
But there are lots of different ways to victory, and I’ve been thinking some new tactics lately :roll:the islands can be taken from Japan
i am maybe even not average player on this forum
and been able to take Japs islands, and many land territoriesand in my last game i ve taken Japan itself, i mean Tokyo
and i ve played a game with many mistakes
ok my opponent made a mistake or oversight there but still, Jap was takenKJF can be done, simply can
we just need old/new solutions which will work against old tactics :wink: -
And then there is Japan pushing BACK from being kicked off the Asian Continent AND losing Borneo and East Indies, but getting back into the game to the point that they took Moscow…
Ah, that was a fun game :-D
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Losing africa is a recipe for axis victory.
G will be too strong, even with UK and Russia together
If u can hold africa and still find a way to weaken jap, then maybe.
But there’s a reason why almost all players go KGF. -
Losing africa is a recipe for axis victory.
Only if the Allies or playing poorly otherwise AND if it is a KGF…
It CAN be an important element for an Axis victory, but it is far from game determining (against a decent Allied player)
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Japan can push back, but it’s just like against Germany.
Russia has to get Germany to over commit to bleed her out until the Allies can finish her off. Same with Japan. Russia has to get Japan to be too aggressive or not aggressive enough while America bleeds her financially with an arms race.
Once that happens, and England’s unified fleet has had a chance to get 2 or 3 island groups, Japan is getting close to being done for. Recoverable with good dice and skill, yes. Odds of recovery? Slim.
Switch might be able to pull off an upset against a determined KJF strategy. JSP or DM might be able too as well (considering they’ve been the pioneers of the KJF strategy on these boards, I’ve mostly talked about it, but only really used it at AAMC because they’re unfamiliar with the tactic and discount it giving me an edge.)
Anyway, as with any strategy, it all boils down to making sure your opponent cannot afford his or her losses.
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Jen, I have a hard time believing that KJF can be done if u lose Russia while weakening Japan…
It would be a very long game indeed :-)
While it may be fully possible to make Japan lose production, problem is that Germany would be gaining too much.
And it’s shorter from Berlin to Moscow than from Tokyo to Moscow.
If Russia has to dig in, then G will have caucus and threaten india as well.I guess some of u have actually done this, but I think this strat is much more difficult than heading straight for
Europe with both UK and US.And do all of u play with 4th ed. revised, TTL, no tech?
Reg dice or low luck isn’t as important as skills though.
Strange that I’ve hardly seen any true KJF game in the lobby, like US or UK take islands from Japan.And if u claim that KJF works better than KGF, as u win more often with KJF than KGF then I must watch some of
the games u play if u ever play in the triplea lobby!! -
Lucifer:
If you had understood what I said, I said you could lose Russia if you had gotten Japan reduced to her main island and you had set up a set of ICs in SE Asia. Realistic to expect in 12 rounds or less, which Russia is more then capable of surviving against an unfettered Germany.
This will allow the allies to produce 16 units on the mainland of SE asia. Even if Germany’s creating 20+ units, most of those units will be back in Europe, only 12 will be in Asia.
Meanwhile, the allies should have the resources to put down some foot soldiers in East and West Africa at that point, siphoning IPCs from the German treasury quickly enough as 100% of Germany’s attentions are going to preserving their Asian/European income.
Also, don’t forget, once the capitol is gone, territories can be liberated for an ally, which greatly increases the allies’ in production capacity.
The only trick is getting Japan off the mainland 2 turns before Moscow falls (so you can build your ICs and produce before Germany can) and reducing Japan’s navy to cinders. (Easier done then you’d think.)
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Lucifer:
If you had understood what I said, I said you could lose Russia if you had gotten Japan reduced to her main island and you had set up a set of ICs in SE Asia. Realistic to expect in 12 rounds or less, which Russia is more then capable of surviving against an unfettered Germany.
This will allow the allies to produce 16 units on the mainland of SE asia. Even if Germany’s creating 20+ units, most of those units will be back in Europe, only 12 will be in Asia.
Meanwhile, the allies should have the resources to put down some foot soldiers in East and West Africa at that point, siphoning IPCs from the German treasury quickly enough as 100% of Germany’s attentions are going to preserving their Asian/European income.
Also, don’t forget, once the capitol is gone, territories can be liberated for an ally, which greatly increases the allies’ in production capacity.
The only trick is getting Japan off the mainland 2 turns before Moscow falls (so you can build your ICs and produce before Germany can) and reducing Japan’s navy to cinders. (Easier done then you’d think.)
We call this a B.A.G. instead of a KJF.
Britain and American against Germany
The reason KJF is not done that often is two fold:
1). KGF is usually more effective
2). KGF is easier to execute for the allies. -
Amon Sul……you TOOK tokyo?! and then had it taken BACK!? what a crazy game. how did that happen.
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To me it seems like UK+Russia is not enough to conquer Germany on their own.
Well the key phrase here is “conquer”
Russia and UK are not enough to conquer Germany <–— Agreed
BUT they are enough to hold Germany of Moscow until the Americans have (and uk to some extent) have smacked Japan down hard (taking all income islands and wiped them of the continent)
UK will use the extra income to boost itself vs Germany, USA will use extra income to buy more fighters/trns to use against Germany.
Personally i prefer KJF in my games because i know how bad ass Japan can be when they are given room to expand at will. (being primarily an axis player).
This strategy works well unless your facing a really offensive Germany that sends everything onto Russia all the time ignoring it´s own casualties, this may sound strange but thats really a problem if theres no USA coming in quick to save the day, but against a passive Germany it usually works depending on circumstances f course :wink:
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@ncscswitch:
And then there is Japan pushing BACK from being kicked off the Asian Continent AND losing Borneo and East Indies, but getting back into the game to the point that they took Moscow…
Ah, that was a fun game :-D
i suppose you refer to our game
as i told in my post i played poor
and i ve played against one of the most skilled opponents on the board toothere is no ideal strategy, each strategy if played well can result in victory, each good strategy
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Amon Sul……you TOOK tokyo?! and then had it taken BACK!? what a crazy game. how did that happen.
see for yourself
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=10149.0
and the thing was that i destroyed all the Japanese transports
so the only way that Tokyo return to Axis powers was that Germany does it, or Japan using the German traand Moscow could fall later beacuse Germans and Japanese had big forces but Sub Dude called it a good one and resigned
when you take Tokyo its almost no return, almost, but it can be done in some situations
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I agree, KJF only becomes an option if Japan did poorly either strategically, bad luck or both.
It can be done otherwise, but with the more familiar Japan open and results of the board, it makes more sense to kill Germany off first.
If Japan has left a BB or AC or both too lightly defended at Pearl, and the British fleet is focused as I described, it’s a simple matter to take East Indies and sink 50% of the Japanese fleet in rapid order. Now it may make more sense to confine Japan to Tokyo before attacking Germany.
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I agree, KJF only becomes an option if Japan did poorly either strategically, bad luck or both.
It can be done otherwise, but with the more familiar Japan open and results of the board, it makes more sense to kill Germany off first.
You just contradicted yourself. You said you can’t run KJF unless Japan did poorly or has bad luck, and then you turn around and say it can still be done…. (with a caveat)
MOST players will agree KGF is the better/easier allied game plan. There are some adament KJF players who will argue this fact. I am sort of on their side as a well executed KJF can be more effective than a KGF strategy.
I think you can do either one with the allies. You just need to be set-up properly with Russia to be effective… and here’s the key… WITHOUT tipping your hand R1 as to what you want to do as the allies.
I run a pretty vanilla Russia 1 that leaves both options available to me. I let Germany make the decision for me. I have several go/no go factors for the KJF plan or not: mainly Germanys buy (and placement) as well as how many forces are where.
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