G1 fleet unification, how does UK respond?

[JLord]

Here is something I was thinking of trying in a live game tonight...  I know the fleet cannot be unified on G1, but I couldn't think of any other way to describe it...

So on G1 I buy 2 figs, 2 arm, 4 inf.  (this was just my thought, I might switch to a strait inf. and art. buy)  

Move the baltic fleet west and leave it off the coast of France, linking up with the Atlantic sub.  Move the BB and tranny to take the UK BB and also take gibraltar.  Make whatever attacks in Europe seem reasonable.  Take egypt with bid units and a bomber.  Land all figs in France.  (note: this leaves the UK destroyer alive)

It seems to me that at this point the only way for the allies to prevent a unified fleet is to attack the fleet off the coaast of France.  And unless UK wants to lose its fleet to a counter-attack, it will have to use planes only.  The fleet can still be defeated with only planes, but the extra sub gives a better shot at taking out UK planes.  Also, germany has the option of submerging its 3 subs right away and then linking with the BB next turn.  

My objective is to give up the naval battle in the north, but have a larger fleet in the Med. so as to prevent easy landings in Africa and hopefully hold Africa for longer.  It also may be a way to maintain a fleet presense without spending any more money on naval units.  It seems better than simply leaving the baltic fleet there because it can be taken out on UK1 with planes anyways.  I know buying a carrier is a common play, but if you assume that you are not going to buy one, is this reasonable.  

So anyways, what do you do as Britain when you see something like this?  Do you think this is reasonable for Germany?

[rjclayton]

I think this is called a "channel dash" although  I have never done it.  I am sure others on this board can give you better analysis than me, but what the hey, here's a shot at it.

UK will likely counter with at least 2 fgt 1 bmb and maybe also 2 trn plus perhaps 1 bb.  If you submerge your subs the US will get a free shot with it's bomber before you get to merge your fleet.  At best I think you might end up with an extra sub in the med.

A cheeky counter by UK might be to build a carrier plus a trn and attack your fleet with everything (2 fgt 1 bmb 2 trn 1 bb).  After 1 round of combat assume Germany submerges all remaining subs (probably 2 or 3).  UK will have lost either a fighter or a transport on average (or maybe nothing).  Now UK places the ac plus trn in the same sz (sea zone 7) and leaves the carrier empty.  Now the US can attack with 1 bmb 2 fgt from EUS and Germany might have 1 sub left to submerge (the same sub that started in sz8 that you could have already merged with the med fleet off Gibraltar).

If you want to counter this combined navy in sz7 (2-3 trn, 1bb, 1ac, 2fgt) you could hit it with 5-6 fgt plus bmb.  After 1 round GER trades 3 fgt for 2trn 1fgt.  A second round would be 2 hits each.  A third round GER would clear the BB with a bmb left.  With the allies I think I am happy with this.

If you buy a few extra fgts on G1 then it does improve things for this G2 counterattack on sz7.  First round of combat you will take 2 trn and 1-2 fgt and lose 3 fgt.  Second round you should clear losing 2 more fgt (3 fgt 1 bmb left).  As GER I am probably happy with this, so as the Allies I would probably do a sz7 lite attack (without the BB) and then I wouldn't place my fleet purchase in sz7 either.

Bottom line, the channel dash with a 2 fgt buy might get you an extra sub in the med (1 bb, 1 trn, 2 sub).  the channel dash without the fighter buy will probably get you nothing, or maybe an extra sub in the med.

[JLord]

Good analysis.  So as UK which plan would you go for?  Attack with planes only, or bring the fleet in?

If you want to counter this combined navy in sz7 (2-3 trn, 1bb, 1ac, 2fgt) you could hit it with 5-6 fgt plus bmb.  After 1 round GER trades 3 fgt for 2trn 1fgt.  A second round would be 2 hits each.  A third round GER would clear the BB with a bmb left.  With the allies I think I am happy with this.

Is this assuming that the German Med. fleet will be blocked from joining the battle by the Russian sub?

So it would seem that the option for the allies given the expected results are:
1. Allowing the fleet to merge uncontested. 
2. Risking the destruction of a UK fig or two in order to either destroy the German fleet or force it down to one or two remaining subs
3. Trade the entire UK fleet plus one turn's worth of income for taking out all or most of Germany's airforce.

If I am the allies I don't like option 1 at all.  I don't mind option 3, but that battle would be very risky for both sides so I would shy away from a possible disaster this early in the game.  I like option 2 the most.  But I wonder what others think.

Given this, then is there any reason to not go for the channel dash as Germany if you are not going to be adding to the Baltic fleet?  Unless you get a carrier up there on G1, the UK player choosing option 2 would obviously attack the Baltic fleet.  So it seems to me that you either buy something to add to the Baltic fleet or you might as well channel dash and force an allied decision rather than just sit in the Baltic and get destroyed.  Does that make sense?

[rjclayton]

Good analysis. So as UK which plan would you go for? Attack with planes only, or bring the fleet in?

Probably planes only if you bought them extra fighters.

Is this assuming that the German Med. fleet will be blocked from joining the battle by the Russian sub?

Yes, forgot to mention this.

Given this, then is there any reason to not go for the channel dash as Germany if you are not going to be adding to the Baltic fleet? Unless you get a carrier up there on G1, the UK player choosing option 2 would obviously attack the Baltic fleet. So it seems to me that you either buy something to add to the Baltic fleet or you might as well channel dash and force an allied decision rather than just sit in the Baltic and get destroyed. Does that make sense?

Yes, it does make sense.  I bet there are a number of players on these boards who would swear by the channel dash.  Additionally, if you are forcing UK to attack you in sz7 on UK1 then the bomber cannot be used to re-take Egypt.  As germany I would probably forgo the Gibraltar move on G1 (I can always do it on G2 if the merge is on) to take (and hold) Egypt if possible and put more pressure on UK to make choices early.

In summary, I think you'll find a lot of players on these boards who would swear by the channel dash if they are not adding to their Baltic fleet on G1.

[JLord]

That makes sense to me.  If you're not adding to the Baltic fleet it makes no sense at all to leave that fleet in the baltic to die.

[Cmdr Jennifer]

1 Russian Submarine cannot block a fleet unification.  Germany can sink the sub with aircraft and unify in NCM.


However, if you put 2 British Transports, 2 American Transport, 1 Russian Submarine, 1 American Destroyer and 1 British Battleship in SZ 12 you HAVE ended the unification issue.

[Axis4life]

That raises a question.  Can ships pass through a SZ where combat has just taken place?  Say kill the blocking ship with AF then move the fleet across.

[Nix]

yes (same with land units)

[rjclayton]

Yes.  But I think the russian sub issue was addressing the question of why the counterattack to sz7 was only with air, not with the BB/trn from WMD sz.  The russian sub can prevent the med fleet from engaging in combat in sz7 on G2.

[Nix]

Still, 6-8 figs + bmb still kills UK bb,2 trn and possibly a Dst or AC.

[Cmdr Jennifer]

Nix, don't forget the 2 submarines, transport and destroyer from SZ 5 in your equation.

2 Submarines, Transport, Destroyer, Bomber, 5 Fighters (*I'll assume a fighter was lost in Ukraine) and maybe a German Carrier (since I'd build one if I wanted fleet unification).

vs

2 Transports, Aircraft Carrier, 2 Fighters, Battleship, Destroyer



Overall %*:   A. survives: 93%     D. survives: 6.6%     No one survives: 0.4%


That is worth it to me!  Even if the surface fleet minus the Carrier was sunk.  I'd be able to link a transport and Battleship with a Carrier and 2 Fighters.  That's a good seed for any fleet, with no British airforce or Navy present and a scant 1 warship of America in the water!



(Link to Frood's Results)
http://frood.net/aacalc/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=&aFig=5&aBom=1&aTra=1&aSub=2&aDes=1&aCar=1&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=&dArm=&dFig=2&dBom=&dTra=2&dSub=&dDes=1&dCar=1&dBat=1&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-Arm-Tra-Sub-SSub-Fig-JFig-Des-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-Arm-Tra-Sub-SSub-Bom-HBom-Des-Fig-JFig-Car-dBat&battle=Run&rounds=&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=Revised&gameid=&password=&turnid=&territory=&round=1&pbem=

[rjclayton]

Nix, don't forget the 2 submarines, transport and destroyer from SZ 5 in your equation.

This thread is about a UK counter to a G1 channel dash.  There is no baltic fleet to counterattack sz7 with on G2 because you would be countering an attack made on UK1 on the baltic fleet in sz7.

[ncscswitch]

If you do not take out Gibraltar, then the UK counter (with the SZ8 SUB in SZ7) is to attack the MED fleet, not the fleet in SZ7.

Use the SZ15 DST, 2 FIGs, 1 BOM against 1 BB, 1 TRN.
UK wins this fight w the loss of only 1 unit most of the time.

Then consolidate the US/USSR/UK naval units in SZ8
4 TRN, 1 SUB, 1 DST, 1 BB + build units from UK1 (I'd do an AC and land the EUS FIG on it, plus a TRN)
Total Allied Force:  5 TRN, 1 SUB, 1 DST, 1 AC, 1 FIG, 1 BB
and invite the Germans to counter
5 FIG (1 lost in Ukraine on R1, newly built G1 FIGs cannot reach SZ8)
1 BOM
3 SUB, 1 TRN, 1 DST

Germany loses almost their entire AF, does lose their entire Navy.

Now UK builds their fleet in UK2, USA sails the fleet units they built in US1 and the SZ20 DST into position, and Germany is down to a land power, with no navy left, and only 2 air units.  Meanwhile, Africa stays British due to lack of Luftwaffe support and the India counter attack, and Russia is gaining lots of gorund with no air threat for Germany to use for territory trades (meaning Germany is trading INF and ARM for Russian INF while they lose ground in central Europe.

[rjclayton]

Switch, if you were referring to this:

As germany I would probably forgo the Gibraltar move on G1 (I can always do it on G2 if the merge is on) to take (and hold) Egypt if possible and put more pressure on UK to make choices early.

Then understand that I am not suggesting moving the fleet to WMD without taking Gibraltar.  I'm suggesting moving the med fleet to EMD on G1 (to help with Egypt).  Then if the baltic fleet survives in sz7 you can consider moving the med fleet back to WMD on G2 and consolidating with the baltic fleet there.  If the baltic fleet survives.

[ncscswitch]

Ah OK.