Amphibious Assault rules question

[madscientist]

So I was playing the other day and came across a situation in which no one knew the official rule.

Germany had bid six inf in Europe, and so took Karelia on the first round. UK took Karelia back, but then had a battleship and two trn in the Karelia sea zone. Norway had no units in it, but was still German controlled. Germany had 1 trn in the UK sea zone.

I know you can desigante which naval units participate in a sea battle and which units participate in an amphibious assault, but can a transport also PICK UP someone after the sea zone has been cleared? For example, could I designate that the battleship and 1 trn attack the German trn and if they survive the naval battle, in the same combat sequence take over empty Norway with a UK tank from Britain?

[Cmdr Jennifer]

No.  All combat happens simultaniously and you must clear the sea zone before conducting amphibious assaults - this is why a battleship must particpate in the naval combat and thus looses teh ability to conduct shore bombardment.

However, you can clear the zone, then move a transport in during non-combat movement to NCM troops from one zone to another, but you have to own both the departure point and the arrival zone and neither the transport nor the units being moved can have also been involved in combat during the current turn.

[rjclayton]

I think this move would be valid if you could have picked up the tank before combat, but since you must clear the North Sea zone to get to UK to load the tank, it is not a valid move.  I think.

[ncscswitch]

RJ is correct.

The TRN cannot load units after it has engaged in combat, which it has if it enters the contested sea zone.

[saburo sakai]

Actually, in 2nd Edition, a transport can load units in a hostile sea zone.  So, this would be a valid move.  The BB and Trn move from BAR to NOR, the arm is loaded on the Trn, the naval battle is fought and if the battle is successful, the armor can be unloaded into Norway as an amphibious assault.

This move would not be legal in AAR, AAE or AAP because transports cannot load in a hostile sea zone, which is what NOR is at the start of the turn.

SS

[rjclayton]

Thanks SS.  Do you have a reference to this rule?

[Scarface]

I don't believe that he has a reference because I couldn't find one. I do believe however that that is an interesting scenario!

[ncscswitch]

Actually, you cannot load a TRN in a hostile SZ in Classic due to the order of game play.

See page 19 of the game rules, column 1.  Once the TRN enters an occupied SZ, it engages in combat, period.  As soon as it moves it, it is moved to the battle board.  As such and cannot mve in and then load.

Also, once it engages in combat, it is DONE for the turn and cannot load new troops (though it can offload).  Allowing it to load AFTER combat breaks about 9 different game rules, most particularly the one about a piece "moving" or being used for both combat and non-combat movement.

[Scarface]

I agree with switch.... I think that was an excellent question though!!

[saburo sakai]

Actually, I do have a reference.  Please review 1.24 in the AAMC FAQ:  http://aamc.net/bunker/forumsql/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=64

This portion of the FAQ was prepared by Blackwatch, who is the Rules guru/JAG for AAMC and IAAPA.  These two clubs, at least, play by this rule.

In addition, at page 16 of the rule book, it reads as follows:

"A transport can pick up cargo, move 1 or 2 sea zones, and unload the cargo all in the same move.  THE CARGO CAN BE PICKED UP BEFORE, DURING OR AFTER THE TRANSPORT MOVES. For example, a transport could pick up 1 infantry, move 1 zone and pick up another infantry, move into another zone and unload both infantry all in the same move."  [Emphasis in original]

There is nothing in the rule book that says a transport cannot load as a result of the presence of enemy ships. 

In contrast, this is what the rule book for AAEurope says:  "You many not load or unload land units on a transport ship
in a sea zone that contains enemy units. If the transport moves into a friendly or empty sea zone, it may load or unload troops."

And this is what the LHTR rule book says:  "At any point during the combat move phase, a transport may load or offload land units (Exception: a transport may never load units if it is in a hostile sea zone)."

You can agree that for games played at A&A.org that you cannot load units in a hostile sea zone in 2nd Edition games, but this is contrary to the way the game is played in other clubs.

SS

[DarthMaximus]

Actually, I'm in agreement with SS on this one (for 2nd edition).

It also came up in this thread about a move from Japan to Man if the Allies hold the Japan seazone.

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=8901.0

[ncscswitch]

I continue to disagree.

Picking up "before, during or after" a move is VERY different from saying "before during or after COMBAT" which is what happens the moment you enter a hostile SZ.

Also remember in Classic you cannot START a turn with units in a hostile SZ due to naval placement restrictions and the lack of "submerge" option.  Thus the ONLY way a TRN can be in a hostile sea zone is by MOVING into it, which means engaging in combat.  And that of course invokes the other black and whte rule listed above that you cannot both Combat and NCM the same unit (excluding landing AF).

[saburo sakai]

Well, like I said, you can do whatever you want here, but the matter is settled at AAMC.  In 2nd Edition, transports can load in a hostile sea zone.

SS

[ncscswitch]

Fair enough.

But that "settlement" does violate black-letter game rules over an ambiguity that does not really exist.