non agression treaty

[3d6]

I was playing a game on Saturday and my friend was playing with the N.A. non aggression treaty.  When I did finally attack the Russians a disagreement between us occurred and we agreed to see if there was any clarification here, we could not find any to our satisfaction. My question is do the Russians get to place for free in the territory that japan attacks four existing units already in play on the board, or do the get to take four new units from the tray and place them on the board. Thanks in advance for your help.

[AJ]

4 new Inf from the tray

[Bunnies P Wrath]

I was playing a game on Saturday and my friend was playing with the N.A. non aggression treaty.  When I did finally attack the Russians a disagreement between us occurred and we agreed to see if there was any clarification here, we could not find any to our satisfaction. My question is do the Russians get to place for free in the territory that japan attacks four existing units already in play on the board, or do the get to take four new units from the tray and place them on the board. Thanks in advance for your help.

It's four NEW infantry from the tray.

You shouldn't play with NAs anyways, because the Allied ones are insanely broken.  It is VERY easy to win the game with Lend-Lease or Superfortresses.   Radar, Colonial Garrison, Mechanized Infantry, Joint Strike, and Mechanized Infantry are also horribly unfair.  By contrast, the Axis get . . . poo.  Lightning Assaults and Banzai are not bad (Banzai is only of limited use because Japanese tanks are needed in Asia to redirect against India/China/Yakut as needed), and Panzerblitz is even fairly good.  But the rest of the Axis NAs don't amount to much, certainly nowhere near as good as the Allied NAs.

[ncscswitch]

Actually, Banzai INF is one HECK of an NA. 

Japan, building an IC and TRN on J1, then a second IC on J2 or 3, can produce 14 2's per turn on attack... and reserve their AF for key defensive moves, naval use, defense, trasfer to Germany, etc.

I have never played with NA's, but THAT one is one that, when combined with my current Japan play, would be VERY beneficial.

[ShadowHAwk]

And dont forget Inf defending on a 3 for the first turn of an amphib assault and all art defending on a 3 in gray zones.
Or fighters attacking on a 5 on the first round of combat if there are no fighters there. That is a nice boost for your naval attacks in round 1. And for trading zones with the USSR.

Those also make your life pretty nice. So not all the axis NA's are crappy some of the allied NA's are good but also not overpowered, remember that russia cant attack japan either but still needs to have some strong presence in the east to prevent japan from attacking, Lend lease is also limited to the amount of units converted, only 1 UK and 1 US LAND unit a turn. So 2 inf/art/arm each turn in your non combat run so that unit is basicaly defending for 2 runs straight.

Except the japan NA's personaly they are pretty balanced.

[Bunnies P Wrath]

And dont forget Inf defending on a 3 for the first turn of an amphib assault and all art defending on a 3 in gray zones.
Or fighters attacking on a 5 on the first round of combat if there are no fighters there. That is a nice boost for your naval attacks in round 1. And for trading zones with the USSR.

Those also make your life pretty nice. So not all the axis NA's are crappy some of the allied NA's are good but also not overpowered, remember that russia cant attack japan either but still needs to have some strong presence in the east to prevent japan from attacking, Lend lease is also limited to the amount of units converted, only 1 UK and 1 US LAND unit a turn. So 2 inf/art/arm each turn in your non combat run so that unit is basicaly defending for 2 runs straight.

Except the japan NA's personaly they are pretty balanced.

You're assuming he's playing LHTR.  Which I think unlikely given the fact that his question sounds like he hasn't yet gone through a lot of games yet.

[ShadowHAwk]

Those german NA's are actualy also in the normal rulebook afaik.
Not all the Na's are replaced in LHTR just some are replaced and some are changed a bit.

And fortres europe and gustave line are both in the normal rules

[Bunnies P Wrath]

Those german NA's are actualy also in the normal rulebook afaik.
Not all the Na's are replaced in LHTR just some are replaced and some are changed a bit.

And fortres europe and gustave line are both in the normal rules

Yeah, I know, only it's called "Atlantic Wall", not Gustav line  And I believe they both suck.  Strong words, but if the Allies are making serious attacks on grey territories, Germany is already losing.  To be more specific, I strongly feel that the Axis NAs generally only delay an Axis loss, but that the Allied NAs generally give the Allies a win PARTICULARLY if the non-LHTR are being used.

--

"You're assuming he's playing LHTR.  Which I think unlikely given the fact that his question sounds like he hasn't yet gone through a lot of games yet."

was in reference to

"Lend lease is also limited to the amount of units converted, only 1 UK and 1 US LAND unit a turn. So 2 inf/art/arm each turn in your non combat run so that unit is basicaly defending for 2 runs straight."

--

If you're playing OOB/FAQ:

Mobile Industry:  Without the IC at Caucasus, Germany is forced to buy an IC late game with an anti-Caucasus strat, and loses 4 mobilized units at the front on the turn after capturing the territory (because there's now a 1 turn delay for building the IC).  As if this wasn't bad enough, now Russia can run a strong anti-Japanese game with an IC at Novosibirsk (ESPECIALLY when combined with the other Allied NAs).  Abuse factor:  4, but goes up to 8 when combined with other KJF NAs.

Lend-Lease:  Remember, this is the non-LHTR version I'm talking about.  UK and US fly fighters to Moscow.  Now Russia has a horribly powerful offense and defense.  Now all Russia has to do is churn out stupid numbers of infantry, smash everything in a gigantic radius around Moscow, blow up the German fleet, and stall Japan out.  You haven't seen ridiculous until you've played against a OOB/FAQ Lend Lease game.  Abuse factor:  10

Radar:  AA guns defend on 2.  Now London is almost impossible to attack, and India cannot be cracked early game without seriouis risk to valuable Japanese air.  Abuse factor:  4, but goes up to 8 when combined with other KJF NAs.

Joint Strike:  Sort of like a lesser version of Lend-Lease.  Unified US/UK attack smashes any German Atlantic fleet easily.  Abuse factor:  7-8

Colonial Garrison:  Not only do you get a 15 IPC industrial complex for free.  You can use it on your very first UK turn to bolster any Indian defense.  The problem with building an IC at India is the two turn delay and the IPC cost; Colonial Garrison solves both.  When combined with Mobile Industry and Radar and a Ssinkiang IC, this is pretty horrific.  Abuse factor:  7-8

Island Bases:  Now US doesn't need to build as many expensive carriers.  This means a far earlier US threat in the Pacific.  Only slightly abusive, but combined with the other KJF NAs, the effect is disproportionate.  Abuse factor:  3-5 in KJF

Mechanized Infantry:  Now the Allies land infantry in Algeria, which move to Anglo-Egypt, then Persia in two turns.  The US easily reclaims Africa.  Abuse factor:  6-7

Superfortresses:  2 bombers on US1, 3 bombers on US2, heavy bomber tech on US3.  Remember this is NOT LHTR that limits heavy bombers to best of 2 dice.  It is FAQ/OOB that uses the COMBINED value of two dice.  Also tech is immediately effective, so there is an excellent chance of doing average 39-40ish IPC of damage to Germany on US3.  (It's limited because any 5-6 or 6-6 combination off heavy bomber dice only does 10 IPC of damage)  And the Germans can do NOTHING to stop it.  Abuse factor:  9-10.

[nooob]

that was the greatest soapbox ride ive seen in a long time

but in all fairness to LHTRv1.3 if you use the recommened charts and only use 1 die to determine NA's "some"...NA's are not over powering at all

[Bunnies P Wrath]

that was the greatest soapbox ride ive seen in a long time

but in all fairness to LHTRv1.3 if you use the recommened charts and only use 1 die to determine NA's "some"...NA's are not over powering at all

Math envy.

Where's my crack pipe?

[ShadowHAwk]

Those german NA's are actualy also in the normal rulebook afaik.
Not all the Na's are replaced in LHTR just some are replaced and some are changed a bit.

And fortres europe and gustave line are both in the normal rules

Yeah, I know, only it's called "Atlantic Wall", not Gustav line  And I believe they both suck.  Strong words, but if the Allies are making serious attacks on grey territories, Germany is already losing.  To be more specific, I strongly feel that the Axis NAs generally only delay an Axis loss, but that the Allied NAs generally give the Allies a win PARTICULARLY if the non-LHTR are being used.

They are kinda nice for the fights with russia, trading countries there. As well as for the defence of western and the defence in afrika.
Inf defending with a 3 on the first ( and most important imo ) round of defence is really nice. Couple it with art and you got a cheap but verry effective defence deterant on that side.
True some of the allies NA's are overpowered but not all of them are.