Axis and Allies Revised Varient ( historical edition) Phase one proposal (draft)

[tekkyy]

If we say that Russia has to spend about half their money per turn on armor to only save 2 IPCs, it's not going to be worth it. They'll lose too much on defense. The packages need to be made up of no more than 2 units to be effective.

Yeah thats a compromise.
Another "strange situation". As we try to model mass production unrealistic things appear. Looking at the production numbers you posted, I am wondering if Russia is incorrectly modelled as 24 IPCs in OOB. Then again they didn't really make a naval.

I think there needs to be the perception of a level playing field amongst all players while still being true to history.

If you said level of playing field I would say it doesn't depending on equal number of NAs and stuff.
As for "perception" of level playing field are we taking "nation specific unit costs" off the table 

Japan=fighters (justify fighters because kamikazes were cheaper than other fighters)

I buy this one more than transports. Kamikazes are not used often enough in OOB, sugguesting incorrect modelling. Actually its probably because of "oil" but thats also on the table already.

A naval fighter? Does this mean we are having more than 1 type of fighter unit per nation? This can be real good when we add more units in a latter phase, but we're trying to avoid new units for phase 1.

Just to add. I think the fighters' bombs and torpedos are refitted easy enough to not include naval fighter.

so IMO we should change it back to a limit of 2 armor per turn.

Yes there should be a limit to all the bonuses. Don't want any strange situations.

[theduke]

I've made some changes. Opinions?

Once per turn, Russia may buy 2 armor units for 8 IPCs.

Germany only pays 6 IPCs for each sub.

UK only pays 10 IPCs for each destroyer.

Just before any battle (either on attack or defense), the Japanese player may declare any number of his fighters in SZ battles as kamikazes. For every fighter declared as a kamikaze, the Japanese player automatically collects 4 IPCs before the battle takes place and adds it to the rest of his IPCs. These designated kamikaze fighters do not have to save any moves for the non-combat move phase or for the actual combat when attacking, but they only have half the number of moves as a regular Japanese fighter (this means that their range is equal to their number of moves- 2 normally and 3 with LRA). They are also automatically removed from the board after the battle if they weren't already taken as a casualty during the battle.

US only pays 13 IPCs for each CV and every CV can move 3 per turn.

[theduke]

My proposed simple tech system for phase 1 (not to be confused with the tech system for phase 2):

1) Radar= All subs and enemy aircraft are automatically detected/targeted.

2) Rockets= You may purchase rockets at a cost of 2 IPCs each. Any number of rockets may be fired from any number of your territories, provided that every territory a rocket is fired from is contiguously connected to your capital. Once a rocket is fired from a territory, it has a range to 2 to reach an enemy IC. The amount of damage done to the IC is equal to the larger of 2 dice rolls. Always roll for each rocket individually (i.e always roll 2 dice at a time). You may rocket attack any number of enemy ICs, but the max damage done to any IC is equal to the territory's IPC value.

3) Super Subs= All your subs attack/ defend and interdict enemy commerce at a roll of 3 or less.

4) Long-range aircraft= same

5) Jet fighters= AA gun units (which also represent interceptors) successfully hit enemy air units (still have to be targeted first though) on a roll of 2 or less, instead of just 1. Also, your fighters are only targeted on a roll of 1 (instead of 1 or 2) when flying over enemy AA gun units. I'm thinking of adding something for regular combat too, but I don't want it to be too powerful. Opinions?

6) Heavy Bombers= bombers can only be targeted on a roll of a 1 (instead of the usual 1 or 2). They roll 2 dice and take the larger roll during bombing.

Remember, that AA gun rules have been changed. The AA gun unit represents not only flak, but interceptor planes, coastal fortifications, and coast artillery.
Against enemy aircraft: Each AA gun unit only rolls 1 die whenever any number of enemy aircraft flies over the same territory, however, up to 3 AA guns may fire per territory. The 1 die successfully targets an air unit on a roll of 2 or less. If successful, then the player rolls again and successfully hits an air unit on a roll of a 1.
Against enemy amphibious assaults: Each AA gun (up to a max of 3) in a territory being attacked by amphibious assault may roll 1 die for every unloading enemy transport. If any roll is a 2 or less, then the transport has been targeted. A transport may only be targeted by no more than 1 AA gun. If targeted, roll 1 die to determine if transport and all it's cargo is destroyed (hit on a 1). Repeat for each enemy transport individually.

[theduke]

Here is a breakdown of AA gun rules with any combo of jet fighters and/or heavy bombers and/or radar.

Assume 1 AA gun, 1 bomber doing SBR:

No techs:
AA gun rolls to target on a 1 or 2.
If successful, roll to hit on a 1.
=1/18 chance of being shot down

Defender has jets:
AA gun rolls to target on a 1 or 2.
If successful, roll to hit on a 1 or 2. (due to jets)
=1/9 chance of being shot down

Attacker has heavy bombers:
AA gun rolls to target on a 1. (due to h. bombers)
If successful, roll to hit on a 1.
=1/36 chance of being shot down

Defender has radar:
AA gun automatically successfully targets. (due to radar)
AA gun rolls to hit on a 1.
=1/6 chance of being shot down

Defender has jets, attacker has heavy bombers:
AA gun rolls to target on a 1. (due to h. bombers)
If successful, roll to hit on a 1 or 2. (due to jets)
=1/18 chance of being shot down (back to normal odds with no tech; techs cancel)

Defender has jets and radar:
AA gun automatically successfully targets. (due to radar)
AA gun rolls to hit on a 1 or 2. (due to jets)
=1/3 chance of being shot down

Defender has radar, attacker has h. bombers:
AA gun automatically successfully targets. (due to radar; h. bomber bonus taken away)
AA gun rolls to hit on a 1.
=1/6 chance of being shot down

Is radar too powerful against the enemy's heavy bombers? IMO it needs some modifications.

[Imperious Leader]

Once per turn, Russia may buy 2 armor units for 8 IPCs.

Germany only pays 6 IPCs for each sub.

UK only pays 10 IPCs for each destroyer.

Just before any battle (either on attack or defense), the Japanese player may declare any number of his fighters in SZ battles as kamikazes. For every fighter declared as a kamikaze, the Japanese player automatically collects 4 IPCs before the battle takes place and adds it to the rest of his IPCs. These designated kamikaze fighters do not have to save any moves for the non-combat move phase or for the actual combat when attacking, but they only have half the number of moves as a regular Japanese fighter (this means that their range is equal to their number of moves- 2 normally and 3 with LRA). They are also automatically removed from the board after the battle if they weren't already taken as a casualty during the battle.

US only pays 13 IPCs for each CV and every CV can move 3 per turn.



+++++++ OK I feel  many of these ideas are basically NA's and should be selected as part of a larger menu of "goodies" to give the project historical credentials. I see what your doing with this, but to give just one choice for each player isnt enough to stimulate strategy and cover all the historical and realistic situations of the war. The Soviets enjoyed an ability to "whip up" countless divisions of infantry, armor, and planes after suffering huge loses were fairly easy to replace them. Each other nation has its own story and its up to us to lay all the facts down in some nifty NA's.

[Imperious Leader]

OK i feel that these represent too many variations and different ideas. Their should be ONE system to represent all these numbers and the MODIFICATIONS should come from that.

AA guns:

Roll one d6, if you get a 6, then roll another d6 if you get a 1-2 plane destroyed. if you score a 3-4 the plane does not complete mission and must return to base ( payload not dropped). The AA gun rolls one time for every three planes, so 5 planes it rolls just once.
AA guns do not roll in non-combat phase. AA guns are automatically rolled anytime you enter (fly over enemy territory).

Modifications:
 Heavy bombers +1
 Radar-1
 Jet fighters +2

This is the kind of thing needed... one rule covering all the possibilities with a short list of modifications

[theduke]

+++++++ OK I feel  many of these ideas are basically NA's and should be selected as part of a larger menu of "goodies" to give the project historical credentials. I see what your doing with this, but to give just one choice for each player isnt enough to stimulate strategy and cover all the historical and realistic situations of the war. The Soviets enjoyed an ability to "whip up" countless divisions of infantry, armor, and planes after suffering huge loses were fairly easy to replace them. Each other nation has its own story and its up to us to lay all the facts down in some nifty NA's.

If we have a huge list (of like 6 or so) NAs, then it will be almost impossible for them to all be of approx. equal value. It took long enough to even get these 6 national units (or NAs as we can call them) to be of approx. equal value. Getting 36 approx. equal NAs can't do done. Maybe it could be done if we break the NAs up into 6 categories, with each category having equal valued NAs... 1 category being these "national units". The thing I hate about the OOB NAs is that some NAs are incredibly good and others are worthless. If we accept that also, then all our efforts to make this game balanced will be torn to shreds whenever players decide to use the NAs with our rules.

[theduke]

I think that the rules for radar, h. bombers and jets are too complicated right now, but as they are worked on more they will eventually be simplified down during editing.

How about this?

Radar= Every AA gun unit can detect an enemy sub in an adjacent SZ on a roll of 4 or less (again max of 3 are functional in any 1 territory). Also, every AA gun (again, max of 3 per territory) may detect enemy air units flying over the territory on a roll of 4 or less.

Heavy Bombers= Enemy AA gun units detect your bombers at half the highest number that they would otherwise detect them at (i.e. they detect your bombers on a 1 without radar and on a 1 or 2 with radar). Also, take the larger of 2 rolls to determine damage during SBRs.

Jet Fighters= Your AA gun units hit enemy air units on a 1 or 2. Your fighters are detected by enemy AA gun units at half the highest number they would otherwise be detected at (i.e. they detect your fighters on a 1 without radar and on a 1 or 2 with radar). Also, your fighters defend at a 5.

[Imperious Leader]

OK another idea: AS you stated ALL the natiions will be able to pick from a master list of NA's BUT they will essentially be made so as to have a point value to them... so you will get so many points say like 20 points some NA's cost 2 points and others are 10 points. the Axis will have a list and the allies will have another list. IN both cases this list is the sum of historical ideas of what was possible and we can make many of them similiar.

example: both sides can have some deal on "cheaper armor" where 2 tanks cost 8 bucks, however the allies pay say 3 points for this and the axis have to pay 5, while another "chit" of say "volkstrum- roll one d6= number of infantry costing 2 IPC can be built that turn..this would cost the axis say 3, while the allies would have a similiar rule but costing 5... something like this...

[theduke]

Let's look at the odds with the new modifications. This may seem complicated, but remember, it's not like all these possible combinations have to be done... just 1 of them. It will become 2 nd nature as people get accustomed to it.

Assume 1 AA gun, 1 bomber doing SBR:

No techs:
AA gun rolls to target on a 1 or 2.
If successful, roll to hit on a 1.
=1/18 chance of being shot down

Defender has jets:
AA gun rolls to target on a 1 or 2.
If successful, roll to hit on a 1 or 2. (due to jets)
=1/9 chance of being shot down

Attacker has heavy bombers:
AA gun rolls to target on a 1. (due to h. bombers)
If successful, roll to hit on a 1.
=1/36 chance of being shot down

Defender has radar:
AA gun rolls to target on a 4 or less. (due to radar)
AA gun rolls to hit on a 1.
=1/9 chance of being shot down (same as for jets, but with different numbers)

Defender has jets, attacker has heavy bombers:
AA gun rolls to target on a 1. (due to h. bombers)
If successful, roll to hit on a 1 or 2. (due to jets)
=1/18 chance of being shot down (back to normal odds with no tech; techs cancel)

Defender has jets and radar:
AA gun rolls to target on a 4 or less. (due to radar)
AA gun rolls to hit on a 1 or 2. (due to jets)
=2/9 chance of being shot down

Defender has radar, attacker has heavy bombers:
AA gun rolls to target on a 2 or less. (it would be 4 or less with radar, but cut in half due to heavy bombers)
AA gun rolls to hit on a 1.
=1/18 chance of being shot down (back to normal odds with no tech; techs cancel)

Defender has radar and jets, attacker has heavy bombers:
AA gun rolls to target on a 2 or less. (it would be 4 or less with radar, but cut in half due to heavy bombers)
AA gun rolls to hit on a 1 or 2.
=1/9 chance of being shot down

I think this is better and simpler. Opinions?

[theduke]

Another change:

Long-range aircraft= All your fighters move 6. All your bombers move 8 in the non-combat move phase of a certain turn if they do not move in the combat move phase of that turn. Also, whenever any of your bombers are shot down, instead of losing the bomber you surrender 10 IPCs to the bank and the bomber loses the ability of bombing the opponent (The bomber then returns to a friendly territory as usual).

Reasoning: No unit should be able to move 8 spaces (go halfway around the world) and participate in combat while doing so. Long-range escorts helped bombers a lot in SBRs, so I think a better advantage for bombers is instead of moving 8, for them to have better escort cover. A simple way to portray this in the game is instead of you losing a bomber when being shot down, you lose the equivalent of a escort (or fighter) unit, namely 10 IPCs.

Opinions?

[theduke]

I think all these techs are worth about the same... 5 IPCs a turn. IMO the OOB techs are uneven in worth. Granted, techs like Super Subs go up in value the more subs you have, but the old techs are still very uneven besides. Hopefully these will be better.

1) Radar= Every AA gun unit can be used to detect 1 enemy sub in an adjacent SZ on a roll of 4 or less (remember, only a max of 3 AA gun units are functional in any 1 territory) but cannot be used to hit the sub. Also, every AA gun (again, max of 3 per territory) may detect enemy air units flying over the territory on a roll of 4 or less.

2) Rockets= You may purchase rockets at a cost of 2 IPCs each. Any number of rockets may be fired from any number of your territories, provided that every territory a rocket is fired from is contiguously connected to your capital. Once a rocket is fired from a territory, it has a range to 2 to reach an enemy IC. The amount of damage done to the IC is equal to the larger of 2 dice rolls. Always roll for each rocket individually (i.e always roll only 2 dice at a time). You may rocket attack any number of enemy ICs, but the max damage done to any IC is equal to the territory's IPC value.

3) Super Subs= All your subs attack/ defend and interdict enemy commerce at a roll of 3 or less.

4) Long-range aircraft= All your fighters move 6. All your bombers that don't move in the combat move phase get to move 8 in the non-combat move phase of that same turn. Whenever any of your bombers get shot down you have a choice of either (a) paying 10 IPCs and losing the ability of bombing the enemy in that same turn or (b) assigning the bomber as a casualty as usual.

5) Jet Fighters= Your AA gun units hit enemy air units on a 1 or 2. Your fighters are detected by enemy AA gun units at half the  number they would otherwise detect them (i.e. they detect your fighters only on a 1 without radar and on a 1 or 2 with radar). Also, your fighters defend at a 5.

6) Heavy Bombers= Enemy AA gun units detect your bombers at half the number that they would otherwise detect them (i.e. they detect your bombers only on a 1 without radar and on a 1 or 2 with radar). Also, take the larger of 2 rolls to determine damage during tactical and strategic bombing.

Rules regarding techs:

Each tech roll still costs 5 IPCs. No nation may spend more than half their IPCs in the Technology Development phase of that turn.

The tech/s you are rolling to develop are declared before you roll. If you roll the same number as the number associated with the tech (see above) then you successfully developed the tech. If you roll the number that equals 7 minus that associated number, then you achieved a technology breakthrough. A technology breakthrough makes it much easier to develop that specific tech later in the game. For every technology breakthrough you achieve in a certain tech category, you get 1 additional free die roll in every turn that you buy at least 1 tech roll for that same tech. For example if you achieved 2 breakthroughs in Super Subs (i.e. you previously you rolled a 4 two separate times while attempting to get Super Subs) but still have not developed Super Subs, then on the next turn that you buy a tech roll for Super Subs you get to roll a total of 3 dice to achieve that tech (1 for the purchased roll + 2 free die rolls for the 2 breakthroughs). Breakthroughs may only be used in the same tech category that you achieved them in.

Note to Imp and others: this breakthrough idea will work well with your goal of having powerful techs and weak techs. You can just make the slight change that rolling the same number be worth 2 breakthroughs (instead of actually getting the tech) and rolling the number that equals 7-that number be worth 1 breakthrough and say that you only achieve the tech in a certain number of breakthroughs (like 2 or 3 for a weak tech and 5 for a powerful tech). This idea can also be used to try to stop teams from being able to achieve techs too early.

[theduke]

The idea of the rule that no nation may spend more than half their IPCs on techs is to take away the unrealistic part of the game of a nation rushing to get a tech by spending their entire economy on techs. This can't realistically happen due to limitations on labs, scientists, materials, etc.. At the start of the game, this means Russia is limited to 2 tech rolls per turn (not like they should use this ability), UK and Japan limited to 3 tech rolls per turn, and US and Germany limited to 4 tech rolls per turn.

The idea of breakthroughs is to better simulate actual tech development. Tech development shouldn't be an all or nothing persuit. It involves a stepwise process.

[Imperious Leader]

OK this is much better... good!  Now can you restate your aa gun rule in a manner thats streamlined?  BTW dom you think we need more techs than you listed?

[tekkyy]

1) Radar= Every AA gun unit can be used to detect 1 enemy sub in an adjacent SZ on a roll of 4 or less

Submarines are detected by sonar not radar? Coastal defense is not about sub I think.

4) Long-range aircraft= All your fighters move 6....Whenever any of your bombers get shot down you have a choice of either (a) paying 10 IPCs and losing the ability of bombing the enemy in that same turn

This built-in esort fighters model is great. But I think all bombers should have it. Or "long-range aircraft" tech needs a change of name. 10 IPC is the cost of a whole fighter piece, maybe it should be 5 IPCs?

5) Jet Fighters= Your AA gun units hit enemy air units on a 1 or 2.

I think only if you have fighters in that territory.

6) Heavy Bombers= Enemy AA gun units detect your bombers at half the number that they would otherwise detect them

I don't understand why heavy bombers are harder to detect!

Each tech roll still costs 5 IPCs. No nation may spend more than half their IPCs in the Technology Development phase of that turn.

Good call.

Reasoning: No unit should be able to move 8 spaces (go halfway around the world) and participate in combat while doing so.

Sounds good.

The AA gun rolls one time for every three planes, so 5 planes it rolls just once.

Why "every three planes"? I was thinking more like "up to three planes" because AA has limited time to fire before the enemy planes go out of sight. Remember how I said "every three planes" model has the proportional aspect which is not accurate?
And its great we let up to3 AA fire.

No techs:
AA gun rolls to target on a 1 or 2.
If successful, roll to hit on a 1.

Whats this target/detect thing?
Does it apply to SBR only?
What happens when we have SBR AND land combat?