Axis and Allies Revised Varient ( historical edition) Phase one proposal (draft)

[theduke]

Forgetting our rules for a second, doesn't it seems weird that in the OOB rules that the Allies are too powerful and that it's unrealistic to have UK and US troops in red territories? Why isn't a more common modification to the game (like RR etc...) to not allow any UK or US units in red territories? That's a super easy fix to fix the balance better and is more realistic.

[theduke]

How about 6 categories of NAs? When all rules in 1 category are used the game balance remains the same. There are 6 so in addition to choosing them you can also randomize which NAs you want to use with the die. I NEED HELP COMING UP WITH SOME OF THE NAMES FOR CATEGORIES.

1) National Units

2) Foreign Assistance (?= CHANGE NAME?)
a) Lend-Lease
b) Italian Forces

3) Non-Warring Nations (?)
a) Russian/Japanese Non-Aggression Treaty (?)
b) Neutral Aid

4) Allied Relations (?)
a) No Western Allied Units in Red Territories (?)
b) Joint Strike (?) (Only declared once per game. Either Western Allied nation may declare it but it can only apply to all units in 1 battle for an Axis controlled territory. The Western Allied nation that declares it must have all units in that 1 battle wait until the next combat phase of the other Western Allied nation's turn in order to participate in combat.)

5) Harsh Winter
a) Russian Winter= Before every Russian turn, Russian player rolls 1 die. If a 1 then Russian Winter is active. All ground units attacking any red territory attack at 1 less than they would otherwise. This applies even to attacking Russian units.
b) Ideas for a balancer rule? Maybe arctic convoys automatically lose more IPCs (haven't finalized this yet. Ideas?)

6) Ideas?

[Imperious Leader]

2) Foreign Aid
a) Lend-Lease
b) Italian Forces

3) Neutrals
a) Russian/Japanese Non-Aggression Treaty
b) Neutral Aid

4) Alliances
a) No Western Allied Units in Red Territories
b) Joint Strike: Only declared once per game. Either Western Allied nation may declare it but it can only apply to all units in 1 battle for an Axis controlled territory. The Western Allied nation that declares it must have all units in that 1 battle wait until the next combat phase of the other Western Allied nation's turn in order to participate in combat.

5) Soviet Winter
Russian player rolls 1 die. If a 1 then Soviet Winter is active. All Soviet ground units defending any red territory defend at +2 than they would otherwise .The roll is performed after the Germans have announced attacks.

[tekkyy]

The lend lease ruloes will take care of that.. BTW the land lease money should be able to only purchase armor, artillery or planes So if the land lease is looking at 10 IPC the Soviets can build 2 tanks or a plane or a tank and artillery... that seems correct based on what the other member posed regarding the types of equipment sent.

Wait not so fast. That was still under discussion I thought? I thought there was lots of general supplies to justify for building infantry with lend-lease IPCs.

[tekkyy]

So we'll have to get back to Non-agression treaty later.

5) Soviet Winter
Russian player rolls 1 die. If a 1 then Soviet Winter is active. All Soviet ground units defending any red territory defend at +2 than they would otherwise .The roll is performed after the Germans have announced attacks.

With rolling of dice added, we are not keeping it to once per game right?

This is what I think you are modelling...windfall for Russia (rolling dice) and unforeseen difficulty for Germany (hence roll after Germany announced attacks not in Russia's turn).

But then how many times per game? When should this be declared?

I am thinking limit it to the climate/geography relevant territories and actually let this happen EVERY turn. Radical but I am just thinking out loud.

[Imperious Leader]

Well i was just cleaning up what Duke posted... I dont like the every turn roll either. In fact i want a proper turn order installed in order to be able to to a few things:

1) declare presisely when a tech comes into effect ( historical based)
2) demonstrate some historical timeframe so we know when we are in the war
3) Install a draw or stalemate position ..if the war is not decided by a turn then nobody wins.

I would like to only have two such soviet winters 41 and 42, the problem is once its declared the germans wont make any attacks knowing they are gonna lose... so it kinda has to be declared after Germany allready has commited to attacks.. can you find a solution? need your help!

[theduke]

I would like to only have two such soviet winters 41 and 42, the problem is once its declared the germans wont make any attacks knowing they are gonna lose... so it kinda has to be declared after Germany allready has commited to attacks.. can you find a solution? need your help!

In real life the Germans knew before they attacked in the harsh winter that they were at a worse position than if they waited to attack until the next year. They knew what time of year it was when they attacked but they decided the gains were worth the risk. This is why I think it's OK to also have it in the game that the Germans know that they will be at a greater disadvantage before they attack. 

I don't think it's realistic to model Russian Winter with better defensive infantry. I think it's more realistic to say attacking units can't attack as well. That's why I had it so the attack always attacks 1 less than without winter. Think about it, harsh winter doesn't cause the defeders to fight better than they would in good weather (that's rediculous IMHO), winter causes the attackers to fight much worse than they would otherwise.

I don't like rolling a die every turn either but I feel that winter needs to be randomized. Russia shouldn't be able to choose what time of year it is to best suit there needs like in OOB rules. What if we said that just at the start of the game Russia rolls 1 die and the roll is the turn number that severe winter occurs? I'm fine with saying that it only occurs once between turn 1 and 6, but randomized. This way a die is only rolled once per game instead of once per turn. Much less rolling but it's still randomized.

[tekkyy]

1) declare presisely when a tech comes into effect ( historical based)

To refresh this is what I thought last: purchase dice before combat, roll dice after combat, comes into effect beginning of next turn

2) demonstrate some historical timeframe so we know when we are in the war

Althought we shouldn't over do it. We setup up the "settings" of the story/game to much historical realism but after that anything goes for the "plot".

Like the Non-agression treaty. There should be different degrees of penalty rather than hard conditions on when one can break the treaty.

[tekkyy]

Much less rolling but it's still randomized.

Even randomized is controversial.
Random is not historic. Yet if its foreseen its not historic either.
I can't think of a solution at this point.

[theduke]

Yet if its foreseen its not historic either.

I still don't see why you guys think it can't be foreseen. I know preparing for a battle takes a long time in advance, but still I'm sure these generals have a calender in front of them when they make the invasion plans.  They know full well that they are attacking Russia too late in the year. They might not know until the few days leading up to the d-day exactly how harsh the weather is going to be but it's not like the generals can't step outside and look around before giving the signal to attack or not. 

The best model for realism IMHO is that the German player knows beforehand that it's going to be a harsh winter but doesn't know the specific outcome of the battle (i.e. doesn't know beforehand how the dice are going to roll). This is how it is in my proposed rule. Why can't Germany know it's a harsh winter until after the invasion plans (i.e. the combat move phase)?

[theduke]

From Wikipedia on Russian Winter: During WWII the only cold winter was in 1941-1942

Since the game starts in early 1942, should we just not have Russian Winter as a NA? Should we just have it only effective on turn 1? I kind of like not having it at all, but if we only have effective for turn 1, then that would solve the problem of it being chosen or randomized... the answer is neither.

[theduke]

Maybe we could have 1 category called "Early 1942" (hopefully someone can come up with a catchier title). It applies to 2 balancing rules that apply for the 1st turn only. 1 is Russian Winter. The other is "The Second Happy Time" when German subs had their way with US shipping. Here is info from Wikipedia:

The second happy time was a phase in the Second Battle of the Atlantic during which Axis submarines attacked merchant shipping to the east and south-east of the United States. It lasted from January 1942 to about August of that year. German submariners named it the happy time or the golden time as defence measures were weak and disorganised, and the U-boats were able to inflict massive damage with little risk. During the second happy time, Axis submarines sank 609 ships totaling 3.1 million tons for the loss of only 22 U-boats. This was roughly one quarter of all shipping sunk by U-boats during the entire Second World War, and constituted by far the most serious defeat ever suffered by the US Navy.

I think we can come up with rules for each of the two aspects that will balance each other out. What do you think about the category, the category name, the idea of having Russian Winter automatically only apply to turn 1, importance of introducing a model for the 2nd Happy Time, and the rules for 2nd Happy Time?

[tekkyy]

Sounds about right.
(Russian Winter fixed in time only, only randomness being the effect.)
We could roll dice 1-3 for -1 attack, 4-6 for -2 attack...

Should planes be affected?

And we haven't progressed further in terms of geographics of Russian Winter.

[Imperious Leader]

Good greif a million new posts!

I still don't see why you guys think it can't be foreseen. I know preparing for a battle takes a long time in advance, but still I'm sure these generals have a calender in front of them when they make the invasion plans.  tongue They know full well that they are attacking Russia too late in the year. They might not know until the few days leading up to the d-day exactly how harsh the weather is going to be but it's not like the generals can't step outside and look around before giving the signal to attack or not.  wink

The best model for realism IMHO is that the German player knows beforehand that it's going to be a harsh winter but doesn't know the specific outcome of the battle (i.e. doesn't know beforehand how the dice are going to roll). This is how it is in my proposed rule. Why can't Germany know it's a harsh winter until after the invasion plans (i.e. the combat move phase)?

OK the Germans planned Barbarossa for a quick campaign and had no idea how severe the Soviet winter could be, because they didn't bother to open a history book on Napoleon who learned a great lesson. The winter assault on Moscow (operation Typhon) was totally unrealistic undertaking because the Germans underestimated both their chances in winter fighting and the tested experience the Soviet had in fighting in the snow. To draw an analogy look at football note how the Dolfins play in new england in early January.

But in a real war the same experience in catastrophic to say the least!  In reality the Germans should get an attack penalty AND the Soviet should get a defense benefit. But in game terms it does not make much sense to say all German attacks -1, all Soviet defense +1... to simplify the math just have one side get a modifier say -2.

Secondly, the Germans attempted a major attack in DEC 6th 1941 and failed... why then in the GAME are the Germans gonna learn the lesson of history before they even experience it firsthand?  So what you propose is to allow the Germans to get the following information: " You should choose not to attack, because we now tell you what happens in history so you don't make any mistakes"

The idea is to model what happened in history so each player can decide "once hes stuck with the problem how he can pull himself out" If we lay a phantom list of historical realities before the player where he easily sidetrack them and step around them ... then we fail as game designers. Our job is to lay the experience upon the play so he can choose the course of action without forknowledge.

[Imperious Leader]

Should planes be affected?

This is gonna depend on what list of air operations we install ( air missions) I dont think air missions should be effected or we would have to zone the map into different sections to represent or "model" weather conditions for each sector.

The weather rules shouls only reflect the Soviet experiance of those winters 41 and 42 . Since the game starts in say april 1942 we only have to cover one such event. Best done as a surprise to the germans in some way.