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Author Topic: Pearl or no Pearl???  (Read 4723 times)
ncscswitch
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« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2006, 03:13:54 pm »
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If Japan has lost the Kwang TRN (and they almost always do) then a Bury attack on J1 against 6 INF is a BAD move.  It will cost you a large chunk of airforce, weaken your China attack, and preclude an India attack.
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« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2006, 03:38:36 pm »
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If Japan has lost the Kwang TRN (and they almost always do) then a Bury attack on J1 against 6 INF is a BAD move.  It will cost you a large chunk of airforce, weaken your China attack, and preclude an India attack.

Hmm. I found a counter I can live with. Bury is attacked with 2 inf manchuria, 1 inf 1 tank via trans + bb shot, and 4 fighters + 1 bomber (all fighters except indies). China is attacked by 3 inf kwang, 2 inf french indochina, and 2 fighters from east indies.

The bury battle is 80% to capture with all airforce intact and at least 1 tank remaining, while the China battle is above 90% to capture with all airforce and at least 1 inf.

Of course, there are some other factors to attend to. Hopefully the kwang flee that the UK owns is weak so your bb + car from indies can take it out, and you will be skipping Pearl Harbor so the rest of the fleet has to defend in SZ60. And hopefully the Allies haven't sent other units eastwards into sinkiang/yakut to counter you again. But if all they're doing is stack buryatia and retreating from India, then this is a counter I can live with. The Russian defense is all but broken with their 6 stack gone, so you're free next turn to blitz SFE and Yakut. You could quite possibly have enough infantry left in China to attack Sinkiang if it hasn't been stacked more than 2-3 inf as well.

If the Americans decide to go island hopping with their initial forces and don't build any additional navy in the Pacific, then you shouldn't be that worried. You can strike it with 2 bb 2 car 1 dest 1 sub + 2-4 fighters after they take East Indies.

It's also true that you won't be in India until J3 even if the UK abandoned it on UK1, since all your infantry is going to china and buryatia and you have to reposition in indochina on J2, but the counter is workable and smokes the Russian defense before it's backed up with other units.
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ncscswitch
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« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2006, 04:11:37 pm »
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Tri...

You may be able to TAKE China with 1 INF in that strat... but having 1 INF in China, FIC empty, and 1 ARM in Bury is NOT a good way to start as Japan.  You'll lose FIC, China and Bury all in T2 unless the Allies are just ignoring Japan (and you are the only perosn I know who totally ignores Japan... at least you USEd to until I taught you that it was not a good idea... AFTER you taught me how to play smiley
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« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2006, 04:54:23 pm »
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Switch, I understand that Japan will be lean infantrywise on the mainland pre J2, but c'mon, when are you going to get another chance to bash open the door to Siberia. The remaining units that the allies can muster there are just picket forces and they will all be retreating once you start landing and producing 9-11 units a turn. Plus, they aren't likely to be reinforced until Japan is threatening Russia's 2 dollar territories even if Russia is making a few spare IPC's because Germany is farting around in Africa and not in Europe, like meĀ  grin.

I'm not even going to go into the merits of the U.S. building a fleet in an attempt to delay you further because, as far as I'm concerned the U.S. can build all the fleet it wants with my blessing.
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ncscswitch
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« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2006, 05:06:16 pm »
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That ONE landing is all you get for a few rounds though...
Your ships in SZ60 are in deep kimchee, with the TRNs the first casualties of course, in an American attack on SZ60. 

That means NO troops to Asia on J2.
That means that UK can no move from their new FIC territory into Kwang (Japan now -3 net).
USA can counter in China with 2 INF and a BOM (if they staged for it in USA1)
Russia can even counter in Bury with 4 INF, a FIG, and maybe even some ARM.

Regardless, it makes it J3 before Japan is landing in Asia again, and at that point they need 1-2 rounds JUST to re-capture their starting territories.  Another for China.

Japan with original Asia territories plus only China and Bury on J4 or J5?  Sounds like a VERY happy day for the Allies!
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Bean
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« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2006, 08:48:49 pm »
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Your ships in SZ60 are in deep kimchee, with the TRNs the first casualties of course, in an American attack on SZ60. 


Really? The Americans can attack with 2 fighters, 1 sub, and 1 carrier, versus 4 trans, 1 bb, 1 car, 2 fighters, 1 sub, and 1 dest. Are you sure the trans are going down as first casualties? The Americans on average die instantly on the first round while inflicting 1-2 hits, you think I will lose transports to that?

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Russia can even counter in Bury with 4 INF, a FIG, and maybe even some ARM.

Really? Who sends 4 infantry to yakut with arm on R1? If you do that then Sinkiang isn't going to be countered.

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You'll lose FIC, China and Bury all in T2 unless the Allies are just ignoring Japan

Really? I don't know many people who defend India. If you leave 3 inf there then the strategy changes, but if you leave 1 inf there then I'll take it, or if 0 inf, then there is no threat to Indochina. If Bury is countered, that is the end of the Russian defense, period. J2 is a hard crash into Bury with a free stretch of land to Moscow, and Russia has little to spare after already making that big of a stand.

Quote
You may be able to TAKE China with 1 INF in that strat... but having 1 INF in China, FIC empty, and 1 ARM in Bury is NOT a good way to start as Japan.  You'll lose FIC, China and Bury all in T2 unless the Allies are just ignoring Japan (and you are the only perosn I know who totally ignores Japan... at least you USEd to until I taught you that it was not a good idea... AFTER you taught me how to play


Burning out your defense stack with Russia so fast isn't a a great idea either. That 6 inf compromises just about all the buffer that you can afford before you have to actually spend units in that direction.

I'm still pretty stuck on ignoring Japan until novosibirsk. I have to admit I'm more tempted to stack Bury than I was previously because I think it intimidates some people more than it should.

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You may be able to TAKE China with 1 INF in that strat

Really? It's more likely to take China with more than 1 inf than it is to take it with just 1 inf.
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« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2006, 12:32:25 am »
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Sorry switch, I was making some assumptions about the Allied forces there but I'm still gonna have to side with Tri on this one.

I assumed no American interference because I would  do exactly what Tri described. If I'm not attacking Hawaii SZ (I have a thing about calling it Pearl Harbor) the only naval units I don't have in SZ 60 will be the 2nd carrier group (East Indies CV/BB) and a U.S. attack there would be just like attacking Hawaii except Hawaii comes to me. I would never lose transports either, thats what the sub and DD are for.

I also assumed that the British were moving to Africa and that at least 4 Russian infantry were going toward Germany. With the kind of Russian hardware you're talking about ( air support, armor), as Japan, I'm thinking KJF. A British mobilization in India and an IC build there would be the final indicator for that. No IC and I'm not worried about massive Russian movements in east Asia because that front structure is going to collapse quickly even if I have to split my builds to counter a U.S. fleet build. With two BB's hugging the coast any incursions into Japanese held territory is risky at best.

Which brings me to the exact reason why, if I get at least a 2 bid, 2 bucks, not 1, go to Japan. If I see heavy Russian and/or British resistance, I won't build the 1st turn IC. I'll build either 4 trannys if I don't see an Indian IC(any empty trannys immidiately go to the islands, if possible) or 3 trannys and a sub if an Indian IC is built and I can expect a fleet competition with the U.S.
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ncscswitch
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« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2006, 01:50:47 am »
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Just rmember, if Japan tries too much too fast, they WILL get spanked.

And with only 1 TRN on J1, attempting to kill 9 enemy INF (revised count to now include India based on Tri's last post) and a FIG is going to result in Japan being VERY thin in Asia, and with a depleted AF.

As for losign those Russian forces early...

If Russia counters Bury on R2, and if Japan has no TRNs on J2, then Japan can;t get to Yakut until J4.  And with only 2 more INF, it will be at least J5 before they can be in Evenk or Novo.  And taht will not be in force.

It cost Russia just their eastern forces plus 1 FIG for 1 round, and 2 more INF to accomplish that.  And Japan had to fight the whole way to Russia.  And now that they are there, they are thin on the front line... VERY thin if trying to advance on other fronts also, and a single counter-strike can shatter their advance.
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« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2006, 03:31:03 am »
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Really? Who sends 4 infantry to yakut with arm on R1? If you do that then Sinkiang isn't going to be countered.



i would.  I usually send 6 Inf to Buryatia on R1, puts 2 Arm In Yakut, moves 2 inf from Novo to Sinkiang.

Uk, usually attacks FIC with 3 Inf, 1 Fig, the goal is to Kill the 2 Inf, and that usually succedes.

if succesfull UK builds an IC on UK 1 in India(southafrica if failed)

And US follows Up with an IC in Sinkiang.


Still plenty of cash to put against Germany.....
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88 Millimeter
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« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2006, 04:50:50 am »
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Wow, glad my Buryatia comment sparked some debate. I've only done the move once.

Russia and Britain dictate whether Japan can even think about Buryatia or not. As I said, it requires a conservative first turn from the Allies in the Pacific.

If Russia is in position to counter Buryatia I say bring it on. The 3 transport build means more dead Russians if Buryatia is countered- according to some of these posts a tank or two. Thanks for voluntarily depleting your offensive forces, Mutha Russia. As Japan I'd exchange troops with Russia all day long. As said above Russian troops defending the north means less troops in the Sinkiang/ Novo region.

And there's no way around this fact- 6 dead Russians may not equal the Sub/ Carrier/ Fighter Pearl strike in IPC value, but they're 6 dead Russians. The Axis goal is to get to Russia, isn't it?

And in only two battles the force breakdown can look like this-

Vs. Buryatia- 3 Inf/ Arm/ 4 Ftrs/ Bmr/ BB shot vs 6 Inf. That looks like winning with an armor to me.

Vs. China- 4 Inf/ 2 Ftrs vs 2 Inf/ Ftr. Looks like a win with 1-2 Inf left to me.

SZ 60= BB, Carrier/ 2 Ftrs, Destroyer, 4 Transports. British Kwangtung destroyer has been taken out by BB + Carrier. Set up to hit F Indo in a reprisal, Buryatia in a reprisal, or reinforce either/or. Second turn IC and you're rolling into Asia nearly unchecked. And if Russia is seriously (not just token defense) impeding your progress, then they're certainly not stacking in enough force in W Russia to prevent German gains.

All that having been said, I don't do this move. Being strong up the gut in China, and killing the Pearl fleet at little or no loss, is extremely solid play. But Switch, I don't think a Buryatia strike should be summarily dismissed as a bad move. It can have merit in the right situation.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2006, 04:59:47 am by 88 Millimeter » Logged
Nix
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« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2006, 06:33:14 am »
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You are forgeting that your 2 Inf from FIC is usually dead (in 60% of the cases so is the Fig in FIC, and UK lands an additional Fig in China)


And if you donĀ“t do pearl you will have hell to pay, and if you donĀ“t kill Buryatia, Russia will attack Manchuria with 6 inf, 2 Arm on R2 (then moving into China and to Sinkiang to Defend)
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JamesG
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« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2006, 08:35:58 am »
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I usually land the Indian UK fighter in Bury with those 6 Russian Inf.  It can still be taken on J1, but it makes the attack more costly, often costing Japan a Fighter.
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Bean
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« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2006, 08:57:45 am »
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If Russia counters Bury on R2, and if Japan has no TRNs on J2,


Why do you keep saying this Switch? What secret attack do the Americans have that can break any transports on US1? SZ60 is guarded by 4 tran, 1 car + 2 figs, 1 bb, 1 dest, and 1 sub (dicepoints = 24, 4 dead units on average). The best the Americans can bring is 2 fig, 1 car, and 1 sub (9 dice points, 1.5 dead units on average). Do you think you will get any tran at all?

The Russian defense is broken completely if Bury is countered. The Russians have burned 10 inf and 1 tank in the East by round 2.

You're right that Japan can go too fast, and I don't advocate the counter as a magical bullet that should be done in every game, but I think it's a pretty fair counter if India is abandoned and the Bury stack (just 6 inf, no UK fighter) is all you're seeing so far from the Allies. I'd rather spank those inf before they get backup from other troops.

My conservative play is pretty much what 88 millimeter is saying, take China strong, do Pearl light, and land troops in manchuria with fighters so the Russians don't get extra money (unless they also have a couple tanks in Yakut, then. If the UK stayed in India, then I might have to leave FIndo troops there so they don't expand either, otherwise India is taken. Kwang fleet destroyed by East Indies fleet, etc. Deploy the tran in SZ61 with 1 bb as backup. Then your bases are covered and you're ready to strike at weakpoints.
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yamamato456
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« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2006, 09:05:57 am »
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I am wondering Nix what would your attacks on Germany look like without those 2 tanks on R1?  If anybody has an idea you can post it in his place, I am leaving for my uncles house and we're gonna play a&a tonight.  I really wanna try this strategy it sounds like a good way to delay Japan or even drive him off Asia (novice Japan)!
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88 Millimeter
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« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2006, 09:34:15 am »
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You are forgeting that your 2 Inf from FIC is usually dead (in 60% of the cases so is the Fig in FIC, and UK lands an additional Fig in China)


And if you donĀ“t do pearl you will have hell to pay, and if you donĀ“t kill Buryatia, Russia will attack Manchuria with 6 inf, 2 Arm on R2 (then moving into China and to Sinkiang to Defend)


Good point Nix, but in most games I play the Allied player either retakes Egypt, is aggressive in the Pacific islands, or pulls troops out of India to use another day. I've never had that strat used against me (Brits vs. F Indo). If the garrison at F Indo was dead they would be very unusually dead.

And when I've seen the Hawaiin fleet left standing, I've never seen hell. It does mean that the U.S doesn't have to buy a carrier. It's a help to the U.S. but certainly not a game breaker. It seems you believe in going after Japan; most people KGF. That's what I'm most experienced in facing.

I'll re-emphasize, and I'll put it in bold to make it clear, Russian and British choices dictate whether Japan can even think about Buryatia or not. It is completely contingent on the game as it stands at that point. I would hardly advocate assaulting Buryatia under good circumstances - if Britain comes after F Indo, then I obviously wouldn't do it. So, I wasn't forgetting anything- I just didn't spell out every scenario that could happen.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2006, 09:41:18 am by 88 Millimeter » Logged
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