What are some good Russian strategies?

[The Desert Journalist]

Well, after playing a lenthy game, my friends and I came to the conclusion that, as Russia, you have to play an aggressive first turn.  For me, I went full throttle into the Ukraine and wiped it out, then took West Russia as well.  From there on out, I usually would either create two stacks in two adjacent areas, or just leave one or two cannon fodder pieces behind, while I regrouped in the areas behind.  By doing this, I could hit with a bigger stack the next time around and then keep that area with assurance.  So a word of advice to all, even though everyone knows this: take the Ukraine with all major hardware.  It takes out the fighter, and, in a way, shakes the German player's resolve, forcing them to make decisions.

[88 Millimeter]

Fox- it actually isn't that obvious to people to take out the Ukraine. Alot of people that post here take out Belorussia and W Russia on R1 instead, and I've been trying to get conversation going about the Ukraine move, but I've met some resistance to it.

What you said sums it up- Germany has more difficult decisions to make, and a few less pieces to make them with. The battles become just a little less sure without the extra Armor and Fighter, and the Ukraine has to be retaken, resulting in a smaller stack in either the Ukraine, Karelia or in E Europe. I always plan my German move expecting to have only 5 Fighters, and when I have 6 I'm freakin' happy.

An aggressive Russian purchase of 3 Inf 3 Arm also gives Russia the opportunity- for a round or two only- to have a large enough threat to make Germany hesitant to come forward. It gains the initiative for Russia on the front for a short time which is a precious commodity.

I think the issue is that most people cringe at the idea of using up the Artillery and several Armor it'll take for Russia to kill the Ukraine, but I completely believe that it's worth it in the long run.

[aaFiendish]

The one thing about ukraine is that it is a riskier battle. Well, it is certainly riskier than west russia in terms of dice. Belorussia is a bit closer, but the end result if you did west russia/belorussia and belorussia went south was that it was only 3 inf. Ukraine is not a battle that is always won, though it usually is. Still, even in LowLuck it can go wrong. I would suggest that anyone who is planning to take Ukraine takes a look at the board with ukraine held with 1 arm, 1 fig, and the russian 3 inf, art, 2 arm dead, and see what they will do. If you cannot come up with something you feel comfortable with doing at that point, then I would not suggest you do ukraine, because it is a very real possibility. I still think it's worth it, but when it goes south it does set russia back moreso than the west russia/belorussia move. I'd say just be aware of the consequences, and think of something to do when the consequences are poor, because it will happen.

[Bean]

The one thing about ukraine is that it is a riskier battle. Well, it is certainly riskier than west russia in terms of dice.

Mathematically, a full Ukraine attack isn't that far off from a full West Russia attack (96% for Ukraine, 99% for West Russia). The difference however is that a full Ukraine attack leaves your West Russia attack at about 80%, and anything less than a full Ukraine attack begins to get risky. Also, the Ukraine attack usually exposes your tanks.

[aaFiendish]

Hmmm, I'm not so sure about that trihero. If I attack ukraine with...

3 inf, 1 art, 2 arm, 2 figs

then that leaves for west russia...

9 inf, 1 art, 2 arm. I guess you are talking about a full ukraine attack, so that'd be 3 arm in ukraine and 1 arm in west russia. So, with 9 inf, 1 arm, 1 art in west russia, you are looking at as you say about a 99% chance, don't you? I mean, 9 inf, 1 arm, 1 art vs. 3 inf, 1 art, 1 arm? Then in ukraine you have 3 inf, 1 art, 3 arm, 2 figs vs. 3 inf, 1 art, 1 arm, 1 fig. You'll say that's about 96%. Attacking without that extra armor still gives you a greater than 80% chance. I very often keep the armor back and use it against west russia instead, because as you say, you will lose armor in a counter. Maybe my odds for west russia while doing the ukraine attack are very off for some reason...

With the extra armor in west russia that is a sure win, so you have about a 20% failure rate in ukraine. It's probably more than that if don't want to risk your fighters at all. I usually play lowluck so ukraine is always valid percentage-wise, so I guess I should have taken that into account.

I still think the move is valid though, even with "only" a 80% success rate. The question is, do you think it would be legitimate if you were guaranteed to take out ukraine and in return lose 2 armor? I can see that losing 3 would be worse news, but I am willing to trade 2 arm, 1 art 3 inf for 3 inf, 1 art, 1 arm, 1 fig. I would not be willing to trade 3 arm for that same amount as russia.

[Bean]

I'm not sure if Ukraine is a good attack. I was just saying that if you do a full Ukraine attack mathematically you have a 96% chance to win, but then you leave West Russia with about 80% chance with the rest of your forces.

[aaFiendish]

Are you sure that 9 inf, 1 arm, 1 art vs. 3 inf, 1 art, 1 arm is a 80% chance? I am pretty sure it is not...

[Bean]

Whoops sorry. I was thinking about something else, doing a triple attack (belo/west/ukraine). If you do a triple attack some of those chances are 80%, you're right 9 inf 1 arm 1 art is 99%.

I'm on the fence about the ukraine attack. I've gone from extremely enthusiastic to lukewarm on it. It does get rid of a lot of German gear, but it exposes your tanks. Sometimes Germany can afford the effort to take out those tanks, and sometimes not.

[aaFiendish]

I would definitely expect the germans to counter the tanks, to me it is completely worth it for germany to do so. However, I estimate the trade of 2 russian armor, 1 artillery, 3 inf to be well worth 1 german armor, 1 art, 1 fig, 3 inf. I could see how it may not be worth it for some though. I just hate german figs.

[88 Millimeter]

Ahhh... finally people who'll debate the merits of R1 Ukraine. I'm very thankful that you guys are getting into the nuts and bolts of it.

I started in Revised by strafing the Ukraine and taking W Russia with 8 Inf/Art/Arm. Now I consistently go with 9 Inf/Art/2 Arm into W Russia and 3 Inf/Art/2 Arm/2 Ftrs into Ukraine, with the purpose of taking it. When part of an aggressive Allied first turn Germany can be hurt quite alot right out of the gate.

Fiend- I agree that Germany will counter and destroy the Russian Armor left over. By the odds with 2 Armor in the attack you should only take it with 1 Armor remaining. That leaves a potential 50-50 shot of killing another German Infantry on the way out. To me that adds into the equation. With 3 Armor going in 2 Armor should remain. That's 100% that an Infantry dies (maybe not always in the real world, but by the numbers. There's also a chance both will hit). Personally I like holding 2 Armor back in W Russia, but there's no doubt that the battle is more risky. I play several different variants of LL (house rules), so I'm not quite as worried about the outcome, although as you said it can still go south. And I like what you said about imagining what it would look like if it went wrong, and it would be devastating for Russia. One of the outcomes is breathing room for the Caucasus, which allows a little more flexibility to send the 2 Inf in Kazahk to Persia to bolster India for a turn or two. Without the Ukraine being taken I'm definitely bringing those two into the Caucasus.

Tri- I agree with you that there's alot of risk with it, and alot to lose (Russian Armor is precious). I was also enthusiastic, then lukewarm, and now for me it's standard. I'm trying to poke holes in my own strategy, so you guys talking about is helpful. I still don't know that it's the best move, but killing the German Fighter is a big deal. It's only worth it if you're willing to get help to Russia quickly, as it does deplete forces. It's imperative to get your Transports up and running at full capacity immediately. If you have other plans for the Allies I'd hold off from attacking the Ukraine, or I'd strafe it. I have found myself if the strafe went perfectly (5 pieces killed) backing off and leaving the Fighter, even though killing it was my objective. It's pretty hard to watch Russian Tanks left hanging.

 

[critmonster]

i like to strafe ukraine, 3 inf, i art and three armor, if first round is good and german roll is weak, hit again if your infantry is toast pull back for next round.  it does leave them that extra fighter so it is a real tough call either way. i have tended to pull back rather than lose 3 tanks but i might try the other next time to see what kind of footing it leaves germany.  its just hard to sacrifice those tanks!

[ncscswitch]

If you are going to hit it... kill it.

The point of Ukraine over someplace safer (like Belorussia) is killing the FIG, that means taking Ukraine.
Also, by taking Ukraine, yes you sacrifice armor (that you WILL miss later), but you also protect your West Russia Stack.  Strafing Ukraine and NOT doing Belorussia means that Germany can bring INF from Bel and survivors from Ukraine to attack West Russia, as well as AF and ARM from Eastern and Balkans.  By taking EITHER Ukraine of Bel, you reduce the INF force he can use, and make a G1 strike on West Russia FAR too costly to consider... meaning Russia can advance AGAIN in R2... and do so safely.

Go hard or go home.

[ncscswitch]

Another risk with Ukraine is it leaves Caucuses less well defended.  Germany can get there with Amphib forces, BB, and AF. 

[critmonster]

very true switch, you can lose your complex g1 if not careful but i don't think it would be worth it to germany due to the amount of air he would lose.  i do like the idea of making the army in ukraine disappear but if you go 3 inf 3 armor you don't have a lot of backup for r2 .

the thing i like about russia is they set the tone, the last game i played they went steady and challenged germany to devote themselves to me, giving the atlantic and africa to my team.  good thing they landed in europe because he was knocking on the caucasus heavy, i got in one good strafe and then uk landed up north drawing his fire.  after that is was the slow march to berlin.

[ncscswitch]

Just watch the back door...
You have enough forces (if you use them well) to REALLY slow Japan down in their march on you... Yakut, Sinkiang and Perisa have to be your hard points.  And Persia means pulling forces from Caucuses to head to defense duty in the south... another reason to start stacking Cuacuses early...