Fortress Europe

[ncscswitch]

After being here about 5 weeks, and reading all of the various Allied strategies, etc. that made folks move to the "bid" process in an effort to equalize the game, it makes me wonder...

Is the best way for the Axis to play this game (no bid) for Germany to engage a "Fortress Europe" strategy and rely on Japan to make the gains to allow the Axis to win?  (assume RR since a no-bid game without RR is a war of attrition that the Axis can;t win if the Allies are played well)

By Fortress Europe, here is what I am thinking:
Germany pulls back in Europe, as HARD as it can.  Moving forces out of Finland/Norway to Germany as long as that tranny lives, abandoning Ukraine (save 1 INF to avoid blitz) and pulling those forces back to Eastern.  And sending what forces are possible to Africa, until such time as the Med fleet is destroyed.

In G1, Germany wipes out the UK fleet (and probably the Russian fleet as well), pulls some forces out of Norway and from Ukraine.  Transports troops to Africa, and builds a single fig and the rest INF; keeping up this build as long as possible (switching to all INF when Russia gains superior combat forces facing Eastern).

The reason for the Fig build is to be able to maintain strikes on the UK navy.  Germany is good for only TWO strikes on that navy before they are out of airforce and navy.  With RR, the 2 subs are an essential factor to limiting German AF loses in G1.  With RR, and some fair rolls, UK fleet is gone, and Germany still has most of its AF (probably down only 2 figs).  1 Gets replaced with the G1 build.

If the most popular method posted here is used for UK, there will be NO allied fleet built until UK2, allowing Germany to make it's second (and probably final) strike against allied navy on G3 with 5 figs and a bomber on the combined US/UK fleet.  Maybe not enough for total destruction, but enough ro decimate the amphib component.  Germany again builds 1 fig in G3 (for defense and to go after any "stray" tranny's that are unprotected).

This delays the US and UK from landing forces in Europe until Round 4, during which time Germany was stacking to the best of its ability in an INF defense of Eastern, Germany, and Western (with a couple of reserve forces in Southern, some of which may or may not have been trannied to Africa).  Germany counters their Europe IPC loses with the Africa gains, keeping them approximately even through the first 3 rounds (average build 1 fig and 6-7 INF).

Meanwhile, Japan has been doing the two-prong tranny attack on Russia's backside:  1 prong whittling at the Yakut Stack, the other workign through China & Sinkiang, with some additional forces also raiding in the South Pacific or into the Indian Ocean; possibly combined with SBR's on Russia just to help control the INF growth in Karelia.

Using that strategy, can Germany hold on long enough for Japan to make a difference? 

I realize that, with Germany not in a position to strike Russia's Western front, that Russia will be able to mount a formidable defense against eastward bound Japan forces; but can Japan take enough Russian territories to weaken Russia, while also taking the US and UK territories in Asia, and the South Pacific, and eventually into Africa, to turn an Economic Victory?  (this is the equivalent of Germany losing Norway and Ukraine; and the combined German/Japan forces taking all of Africa, all UK territories in the Mid-East and Asia, plus Australia and NZ; US territories in Asia, plues Russian territories of SFE, Yakut, and at least 1 of Kaz/Novo/Evenk.)

[ForzaItalia]

yes, I think they can hold out.  That's what I like to do when I play Germany or the Axis powers.  Despite many strategies that say to forget Africa, I like transport (some) troops to Africa because getting some of those territories (in assistance with Japan fighting a good land and pushing towards Russia) can prove to be very effective to winning the game via an economic victory. 

[madscientist]

I played against this one guy once who, after 3 rounds and significant inroads into Africa, pulled everything back into just the capital. He had 40 inf in Germany with 4 fighters, plus building inf every round. I tried to build up forces to attack this, but I just bounced off. I made the mistake of taking SEU with Russia instead of USA, so I couldn't build American units in Italy. Anyway, it took me so long to build up enough forces to attack this stack again, that Japan had an economic victory by then. Pulling back is sometimes advantageous.

[221B Baker Street]

In my experience, Fortress Europe is the best way for the Axis to win in a no-bid game.  You do try to keep Africa as long as you can (you need the money).  Also, you need to be able to trade Ukraine back on forth (the $3 a turn is also needed).  At some point you will probably lose W. Europe, but can roll your tanks from E. Europe to re-take it (conceeding E. Europe for a turn, taking it back next turn with your tanks).

The key with Japan is to start rolling for tech as soon as you are able to push 10 or so inf a turn into Asia.  I always hope to get IT or HB either of which might give Japan enough to take out Russia (as long as Germany is still alive).

Of course the Axis still lose most of the time (at least when I play).  Japan might never get the techs needed, the Allies can also roll for tech, Germany might (and usually does) fall before Japan gets IT, or HB...  But this seems to be the best way to win in a standard game, AFAIK.

[limitedwhole]

The best way for the Axis to win is for Germany to just trade border territories back and forth with the Russians forcing the Russians to lose tanks to german losses of infantry.  The Germans should go into Africa hard, initial one transport per turn starting turn 2 and then two transports a  turn.  The Germans should remove the entire British navy on turn one.  The Japanese should Pearl HArbor and build transports rather than mainland factory.  Germany has no problem making large gains in Africa.  Japan has no problem making large gains in Asia.  Germany uses the I.P. gained from Africa to invade Russia after Japan has weakened Russia.  It's easy for each of the Axis powers to pick up 10-11 I.P.

[Bashir]

Lol like you state it the Axis will win almost everygame... You surely never played a decent allies player... And again Rusland losing arms to germans inf is ridicilous... If you change territories you use inf and fig => No ARMS!!!

[limitedwhole]

Lol like you state it the Axis will win almost everygame... You surely never played a decent allies player... And again Rusland losing arms to germans inf is ridicilous... If you change territories you use inf and fig => No ARMS!!!

The Axis win about 45% of games.  I have played against excellent Allies players.  Not ridiculous.  Russia buying anything but tanks and infantry is ridiculous.  Russia is always under 20 I.P. by thrid turn.  12 for a fig instead of 4 infantry. Laughable.  If a Russian player buys figs, Germany can just roll over him.  Heck I might even buy an A.A. gun just for the fun of it and laugh when he loses four infantry every time one of his fighters gets shot down.

[Bashir]

Lol like you state it the Axis will win almost everygame... You surely never played a decent allies player... And again Rusland losing arms to germans inf is ridicilous... If you change territories you use inf and fig => No ARMS!!!

The Axis win about 45% of games. I have played against excellent Allies players. Not ridiculous. Russia buying anything but tanks and infantry is ridiculous. Russia is always under 20 I.P. by thrid turn. 12 for a fig instead of 4 infantry. Laughable. If a Russian player buys figs, Germany can just roll over him. Heck I might even buy an A.A. gun just for the fun of it and laugh when he loses four infantry every time one of his fighters gets shot down.

OMG...

1) playing only with RR the Axis doesn't win more than 15% (absolute maximum!) of the games.
2) Russia is just buying inf... maybe an arm or 2. You start with 2 fighters!!! I was refering to those! Exchange lands means taking it with minimal forces so say ger takes it with 3 inf... You can attack that with 5 inf anf 2 fig ans easily win without losing arms...

You stated you have played against excellent allies players... Howcome the Axis still wins 45% of the games than with poor purchasing? (for instance buying 1 tran on J1 and buy more ships to go after the US...) That is laughable in my opinion...

[limitedwhole]

Spending two turns to take an INF off an isoland is laughable in my opinion.  You obvisouly have never played against good axis players.  1 Transport for Japan is optimal on first turn.  The fact that you think using your entire income on TP on the first turn with Japan  so that you can go two turns out of your way to not waste a infantry or two lets me know why the "Axis only win 30% of games."

[Bashir]

I did play enough really good axis players and allies players... But you are just laughable... My tran will be away for 1 turn while your inf is still waiting to get transported so it takes 2 turns before your inf is in place... Like I said on J2 you will have 2 inf and a tank or 4 inf waitng to get transported... If you are still thinking 1 tran and 5 inf is optimal play I will stop arguing with you because it won't help. 2 trannies and 3 inf is optimal... 3 trannies is a little bit of a gambit but can pay off huge.

[limitedwhole]

I did play enough really good axis players and allies players... But you are just laughable... My tran will be away for 1 turn while your inf is still waiting to get transported so it takes 2 turns before your inf is in place... Like I said on J2 you will have 2 inf and a tank or 4 inf waitng to get transported... If you are still thinking 1 tran and 5 inf is optimal play I will stop arguing with you because it won't help. 2 trannies and 3 inf is optimal... 3 trannies is a little bit of a gambit but can pay off huge.

Okay....ahem.  I move a tranny form Carolina and use one form Japan to transport 4 inf on turn 1.  I purchasew 1 tranny.  I then move all the infantry I purchased on the immediately next turn.  How are my inf waiting aorund.  I'm sorry but you clealy haven't even considered what I am saying.  They is no delay.  You have 2 TP to transport 2 INF from Philipines and 2 From Japan leaving 1 INF on Japan.  Add the five you bought.  You now have 3 TP to transport 6 inf on turn two.  So you get 10 inf to the mainland by turn 2?  Obviously you are misisng the point that instead of moving my transports off out the way to islands that I have all three transports at Japan.  Thats 6 inf.  Thats all the inf I have in Japan.  No waiting.  None.  No waiting.  10 inf by turn 2.  No waiting.  No delay.  10 inf by turn two.  No delay.  No waiting.  Am I clear here there is no waiting.  Set up the board and try it.

Let me repeat it.  Move a transport from CArolinia picking up INF at Philipeans.  Move INf from Japan.  Place TP.  Place 5 INF to go with 1 INF that is sitting there.  On turn two move all 6 INF.  That's 10 INF by turn two.  No waiting.  No delay.  I repeat there is no delay.  There are no infantry waiting to be shipped.  I didn't waste my entire production and two turns to land INF.  I just landed the maximum amount possible over two turns.  Is that that hard to understand.

[Bashir]

Is it too hard to understand for you that I will have 10 inf and a tank on Manchuria at J2? With an extra transport? Is that too hard to understand that 10 inf and a tank is more than just 10 inf?

[limitedwhole]

And you bought more TP than you can use effetcively thereafter thus pigeonholing your self and losing maximal usage for turns 4-6.  Is that that hard ot understand? 

1) You concede that Japan takes most of Asia fi not all.
2) You are shipping INF to Norway instead of Africa.

How could the Axis not win.  Africa+Asia is more than enough I.P. to win.

[Bashir]

Are you related to SHP?? because you are arguing the same way...

[221B Baker Street]

Limited;

You seem to have much to learn.

The best way for the Axis to win is for Germany to just trade border territories back and forth with the Russians forcing the Russians to lose tanks to german losses of infantry.  The Germans should go into Africa hard, initial one transport per turn starting turn 2 and then two transports a  turn.

Trading border territories is common practice, usually done with Ukraine.  However Germany cannot afford buying this many transports and troops you are sending to Africa with them.  Two transports a turn is more expensive in ipc terms than what you gain from all of Africa.  You aren't getting your moneys worth and therefore you should be losing every game with this strategy. 

1) You concede that Japan takes most of Asia fi not all.
2) You are shipping INF to Norway instead of Africa.

How could the Axis not win.  Africa+Asia is more than enough I.P. to win.

The Allies only need one shipment of troops to Africa (1 turn) to drive out the germans.  All the other troop shipments each turn go towards Russia.  As the Allies I will have Germany out of Africa before Japan has Asia = no axis win.

If Japan tries to take Africa, the Allies can easily counter because Africa is closer to the Allies than to Japan by transports.  It takes only one turn by the UK to put troops in Africa but several for Japan.= no axis win.  If you think you can do it with a factory in India, be my guest because I can simply use only two transports and match the India factory output while sending the rest to Russia.