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Author Topic: How to make the Schlieffen plan work?  (Read 1470 times)
DuckofDeath96
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« on: March 23, 2017, 09:28:52 am »

Hello all,
I really want to try the Schlieffen Plan next time I play as the CP in A&A '14, but I am aware that it is quite a risky undertaking.
Especially because my friends and I always agree Switzerland is impassable.
Any suggestions on how best to achieve this?
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wove100
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« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2017, 09:47:19 am »

If Austria-Hungary can do the heavy lifting against Russia and you're prepared, as Schlieffen was, to let Russia contest Prussia and Silesia, I think it could work. The problem would be that Austria-Hungary would have to worry about the Italian and Balkan fronts with so many of it's forces committed to Russia.
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Private Panic
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« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2017, 09:44:25 am »

I have been allies in 2 games where G went west and AH went east.

In both, my R consolidated its forces and pushed AH back, while G failed to take Paris in the face of F, GB & (eventually) US opposition.

I mention it as it did happen, but I would not draw too many conclusions Duck. In fact I look forward to trying it myself when I play axis next.

Good luck!
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Wolfshanze
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« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2017, 10:36:17 am »

I mention it as it did happen, but I would not draw too many conclusions Duck. In fact I look forward to trying it myself when I play axis next.

See... this is why Brits can't be trusted... they think Germany was part of the "Axis" during WWI...
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DuckofDeath96
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« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2017, 01:50:59 am »

I have been allies in 2 games where G went west and AH went east.

In both, my R consolidated its forces and pushed AH back, while G failed to take Paris in the face of F, GB & (eventually) US opposition.

I mention it as it did happen, but I would not draw too many conclusions Duck. In fact I look forward to trying it myself when I play axis next.

Good luck!

I was thinking about destroying the British fleet in Germany's first turn with everything I've got, so the Brits can't send troops to the continent.
It's a gamble, but if I pull it off I only need to face France. The UK might get scared and spend IPC's on rebuilding its fleet, which will also relieve the Ottomans.
Maybe I can send just enough troops to the eastern front to keep Poland contested together with the Austro-Hungarians, so I don't lose Prussia's IPC's?
I believe the biggest problem as wove100 said is Austria-Hungary. They will have to deal with Italy and a stronger Russian player.
I'll probably have to balance between sending just enough units to Venice to keep it contested and attacking Russia together with the Ottomans.
Does this sound reasonable?

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Private Panic
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« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2017, 02:37:40 am »

I understand from wittmann, who is rather more experienced than I with 1914, that the axis cannot win this game. Nevertheless I have played half a dozen times and won them all regardless of which side I play. My axis (OK CP Wolf!) play has been to take out Russia and accept retreat in the west. So I assume that when in a future game I try to go for Paris I will accept retreat in the east.

Getting the minimal level of reinforcement right to prevent retreat becoming rout will be key. But I cannot say what that is as I have not yet tried it.

In the two games I played against a G Schlieffen he did go for the GB fleet, succeeding on one of those occasions, but still lost the game.

I think you are correct about AH holding both Italy and Russia, which it failed to do in both those games. I imagine taking Venice and contesting beyond might make sense. The bigger problem however is if Russia consolidates its large number of rather spread out units.

Do let us know what happens.
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Flashman
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« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2017, 04:15:17 am »

There's really only one way to do this - move Paris to the "Burgundy" tt.

It's standard for Germany to sink the UK fleet R1, and for the UK to rebuild a fleet straight away, with protection from the French navy.

Thereafter the UK should be able to feed enough units into France to prevent Paris falling,
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Frederick II
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« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2017, 12:43:42 pm »

If Germany is going after France, then the Ottomans need to be aggressive to force the British to spend ipcs on the Middle East. As Germany you can't let France put you in a deadlock because that would drag out enough time for both GB and US to arrive with reinforcements. Germany should try to take France before America arrives, even though they look small they can easily change a battle which can change the tide of the front. The best thing you can do to the British besides taking out their starting fleets is create a few subs or a battleship to force GB into building more warships and less transports. Plus if the Ottomans are putting enough pressure on GB to force them to spend some ipcs in the Middle East, that should take up most of the British economy for the early part of the game or the amount of turns for you trying to take Paris.

Taking Paris is possible however, very difficult. And the problem is what to do after you take France. The US and GB will send whatever they can to liberate Paris and reinforcing Paris is super hard (since it being far away). It is also likely Russia will be in a position of strength. And who knows what Austria-Hungary is going to look like. If you have a house rule like two movement for land units, then taking Paris would be easier.

Overall using OOB rules I wouldn't recommend it, if using certain house rules maybe. However, if you do decide to use the Schlieffen plan, then good luck! grin
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DessertFox599
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« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2017, 07:33:53 pm »

Whether the cps are going for Russia or France, they should take out the British navy. I would say for at least the first turn, you just build ships as germany gets alot of troops. I have never tried the Schliefen plan. I have always gone full Russia. I guess this is the ww1 version of sealion. I would think the Austrians have to focus on northern Italy and try to get to France as soon as possible. The German Navy must take out the British navy and keep building to distract GB, but also lots of men as well. But I don't know. I am interested to see what people are going to say.
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WraithZer0
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« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2017, 07:27:23 am »

The WWI version of Sealion, is, technically, the Battle of Jutland.  So, it did happen, it just wasn't well-organized.
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Wolfshanze
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« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2017, 08:51:18 am »

The WWI version of Sealion, is, technically, the Battle of Jutland. So, it did happen, it just wasn't well-organized.

Ummm... just no... not even close... "technically" or otherwise...

Sealion was the planned amphibious invasion of England...

Jutland was a large massive fleet battle... there were no transports, no planned invasion of England. Even if Jutland was a massive resounding success for Germany, inflicting massive British casualties to almost no German ones, there would have been no follow-on invasion of England... at the most optimistic, a German victory at Jutland would have been more of a "cut the supply lines off from England and bring them to the negotiation table" type of win, rather then "now we see German soldiers marching across London Bridge" kind of thing.

Jutland in WWI and Sealion in WWII have almost nothing in common aside from the nations involved.
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WraithZer0
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« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2017, 11:04:49 am »

You're right.  You were a jerk about it, but you're right.
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greenmustang21
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« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2017, 11:12:30 pm »

You're right.  You were a jerk about it, but you're right.
The facts take no prisoners  cheesy
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Preussener
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« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2017, 02:25:25 pm »

Historically, Germany was supposed to send 80-90% of forces against France, Austria was to hold back Russia and Serbia, and Britain was not even supposed to enter the war.

Pre- World War 1 was a diplomatic disaster for the Kaiser, with only A/H as a stable ally. However, the Schlieffen Plan could still work, though it would likely need Austria/Hungary completely defending Germany's eastern rear.

In extremely-simplified, "experimental" games I have played with just France and Germany, Germany wins only leaving Prussia's armies behind. When Britain is added, Germany must send 100% of starting forces and the first 2 or 3 turns (5 inf, 5 art each turn) West to capture Paris. It takes another turn to secure any gains, all for a total of 6-10 turns.

(This is playing 1-space moves.)

Overall, it is difficult, but possible. Also, this was "experimental", leaving out details like Turkey taking India from UK, and Austria losing to Italy.
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JonathanMeyer
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« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2017, 04:39:21 pm »

Here's a video on the topic without the handicap of an impassable Switzerland:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAz-Okk8yEI

With the handicap in mind, I think I would employ the following opening (tournament rules):

All units starting in Ruhr attack Belgium
All units starting in Alsace attack Belgium
All units starting in Munich Alsace
All units starting in Kiel to Alsace
All units starting in Hanover to Alsace
1 Infantry from Berlin and a Fighter from Berlin to Munich
3 Infantry from Berlin to Prussia
3 Infantry from Berlin to Silesia
All remaining units in Berlin to Galicia
3 Artillery from Prussia to Galicia
3 Artillery from Silesia to Galicia
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