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Author Topic: G1 Builds/Opening  (Read 1369 times)
Ruin
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« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2017, 09:46:25 am »
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Very rarely will I see a good player build a destroyer.
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DouchemanMacgee
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« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2017, 03:00:36 pm »
+1

Hi all.  Sorry for not replying in a while I've been busy with work and University.

Wait, you're really happy to trade Britain's 1 BB / 1 DD / 3 TT for Germany's 2 SS / 2 FTR?

Aside from the fact that you are trading 60 British TUV for 36 German TUV, if Germany positions the rest of its air force properly, then it can hit Britain's next fleet with a minimum of 3 FTR / 1 BMR, or more if Germany built a new plane (not unreasonable when you know you're ordering an immediate attack on the Royal Navy). What can Britain put in the water with one round of income that can stand up to that kind of follow-up attack?

On second thought that's a horrible idea!  Should probably have thought that through a little more before posting.

What would you say the optimal B1 buy/fleet move is, then?  I know it's a bit off-topic but I've only just started playing Revised again and haven't had the most time to practice.

Very rarely will I see a good player build a destroyer.

What do you propose UK buy instead of turn 1, then?  A CV (landing the spawn FTRs on it for a decently rock-solid defense)?
I only ask because, while I understand that transport balls are the best option for naval combat, the initial UK Fleet is pretty lacking in terms of punching power (1 BB + 2 TT).
Even if you buy 3 TT (for a total of 1 BB + 5 TT), it's still going to take another turn or two before that fleet will be able to get anywhere near the European coast.
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Kreuzfeld
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« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2017, 04:41:09 am »
+1

Depending on the result of G1, should should have some very good options on UK1. I will assume germany did place 2 units in libya, sent the med fleet with 1 ftr to 15, while sending 1 inf + 1 art from italy and 1 bomber to egypt.

Germany will most likely have taken egypt and have about 4 landunits left. he will have 5 ftrs and 1 bomber (instead of 6 fighters and 1 bomber). Where germany has placed these 5 fighters is very important. Usually, germany will not be able to place all of the fighters in france/Libya.
Germany can easily place 4 FTRs in France and 1 FTR/1 BOMBER in Libya.
no, Germany has 5 ftr and 1 bomber after you hit Ukraine. He has a good chance of loosing at least 1 ftr either against the UK BB, or the or against the uk DD in the med.

I reccomend uk build in this situation of 1 ftr, 5 inf and 1 tank.

I'm more for a Navy build (1 DD/1 TT/1 FTR) on B1.  I don't build land units because I ferry the tank from Canada to UK and simply land 1 INF in Norway, supported by the air units UK starts with (1 INF/1 ART if the Germans left more than 1 INF there to defend).  That way I have the spawn units to fill my transport fleet next turn for a harder landing somewhere.
You are wasting an entire turn of the allies by not attacking on UK1.

time send your entire UK fleet to morocco.  If US sends its fleet to help you, you will have a situation where germany only have 1 inf and 1 art in africa. while you will have 2 UK inf and 2 tank in morocco and 2 us inf, 1 us art and 1 us tank. Your fleet of morocco will be: 1 UK BB, 2 UK TT, 1 US DD, 2 US TT and 1 ussr sub. At this point The german fighterposition is vitally important. If he can reach with 4 ftrs and 1 bomber, you are safe, if he has 5 ftrs and 1 bomber, this move does not work.

You don't even have to do that if you buy the fleet I suggest and move the Russian Sub to SZ6 (the one right next to the Baltic) on R2.

The hypothetical UK Fleet I'm suggesting is 1 BB/1 DD/3 TT
Which would be facing the max Germany can send its way:  2 SUB/4 FTR

UK would lose the fleet to that attack but Germany only comes out with an average of 2 FTR.  This means that Germany is effectively losing a large share of its air force to kill a fleet that the UK will happily rebuild on the very next turn.

I misremembered. The sub should block the german fleet if there is anything left of it after UK1, however, if germany have put their entire fleet outside france on G1, you will not be able to stop germany from adding the vital subs as fodder for the Gibraltar attack. This is why you need to look at the german position before you decide if you want to put your fleet at gibraltar.

Buying DDs is always bad. TTs are amazing combatunits in this game. Try running a combatsim with fighters against 1 BB and TTs, find out how many you need. It is alot. The DDs are really not worth the extra factor.

At this point, the german position in africa is misrable. he has 2 landunits, you have 8, you will continue to shufle landunits down there until you have enough UK fleet to switch to the north. Those landunits will run as fast as they can to caucasuss, (you can ususally get between 10 and 30 landunits through before japan holds persia).

In most games I've played Germany just uses the Medi fleet to snipe Ukr.
Are you sure the shuttle of troops from UK -> N. Africa -> Caucasus is the best option?  Every turn you're not threatening Europe is another turn Germany has to setup giant stacks and/or stack Ukraine.
Yes Smiley, but not through the entire game.
Round 1-5ish is when you ship to africa. Then, at some point, you swich uk to Norway. You will have saved up some cash and might buy the needed carrier when you do. At some point, you will no longer have a landrout to cauc. At this point, you should have at least 80 americans between morocco and cauc, and about 10 TTs. Then you move all of your TTs to the med, and start landing 20 units/ round in the weakest spot you can find on the mainland. At the same time, uk will round 10 units per round, germany will collapse like a house of cards. I have done this countless times against good players (this is what happens when you win against them).


So, If you kill that ukrainian fitr, you will get one more round of reinforcements to caucasus and lock down africa on UK1. I have done this soo many times, and this is standard play among top players. The one wrench here is the german baltic fleet. A lot of germans will send it out on G1 to prevent this move. You have to be aware of it and calculate your fleet.

I agree with these yes.  Although if Germany sails its fleet out you can easily intercept and destroy it with the SZ2 Fleet (The BB and the TT) + the 2 FTRs.
Yes this delays your fleet uniting with the Americans but if you build navy B1 and move the Soviet sub to link up with the British R2 the combined fleet can easily repulse the 4 FTR/ 1 BOMBER Germany can send your way.

This is why you look at the map. most germans are not set up for it. To be set up for it, they need to not land in egypt on G1, or they need to move their baltic fleet out on G1, and have it survive against your UK airforce. Otherwise, you can block the baltic fleet with a uk subbuild, and the medfleet will be out of range. On, US2, you will send in the DD and the 3 extra TTs you built (if germany build navy on G1, you might build an american carrier on US1 to seal the deal), and after that, the game is up.  Germany will never be strong enough to kill your fleet.
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DouchemanMacgee
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« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2017, 02:05:15 pm »
+1

no, Germany has 5 ftr and 1 bomber after you hit Ukraine. He has a good chance of loosing at least 1 ftr either against the UK BB, or the or against the uk DD in the med.

If you bring 3 FTR + 1 SUB (the one from SZ8) against the 1 UK BB, the chances of you getting hit twice in that battle are absurdly low.  The BB would need to hit you twice in a row (4/9 chance), while you would have to fail to get two hits in the first round of combat.  The chances are better for this.
-There a 6^4 (1296) possible combos of dice you can roll for 4 attackers.

-Of those, there are 18 * 36 = 648 combos where you get two hits.
648/1296 = 1/2 chance to get two hits.

4/9 * 1/2 = a 2/9 (~22%) chance of losing two units to the battleship.

Same goes for the 1 FTR+1 BB Vs 1 DD.  It's a 1/4 chance for the UK DD to get 2 hits in a row, and a 1/6 chance for the combination of a FTR and a BB to miss the first attack.  Combine those and you're looking a 1/24
(< 5%) chance of losing the FTR.

So there's a believable chance you'll lose one FTR in all of that, and wind up with a 3 FTR stack in W. Europe instead of a 4 FTR stack, but the odds of losing 2 FTRs in the opening sorties are laughable.

I'm more for a Navy build (1 DD/1 TT/1 FTR) on B1.  I don't build land units because I ferry the tank from Canada to UK and simply land 1 INF in Norway, supported by the air units UK starts with (1 INF/1 ART if the Germans left more than 1 INF there to defend).  That way I have the spawn units to fill my transport fleet next turn for a harder landing somewhere.

You are wasting an entire turn of the allies by not attacking on UK1.

I figured the attack on Egypt was implied.  Not retaking Egypt turn 1 is tantamount to suicide.

I fail to see the point in dumping an entire army in Europe, which would leave the fleet vulnerable to a counterattack and force the allies to waste 2-3 turns rebuilding both a fleet AND a land army.  A good Germany will use those breather turns to win the game.

Buying DDs is always bad. TTs are amazing combatunits in this game. Try running a combatsim with fighters against 1 BB and TTs, find out how many you need. It is alot. The DDs are really not worth the extra factor.

That's two of you know that have pointed out that DDs are a bad buy.  I've looked into it a bit and I'm starting to think that a CV buy B1 might be the best bet for not dying to the German Fleet (it helps to be able to land two FTRs on it to basically give yourself 36 IPCs worth of defense for a 16 IPC investment).  Thanks for the advice.  Correct me if I'm wrong on the CV though.


Yes Smiley, but not through the entire game.
Round 1-5ish is when you ship to africa. Then, at some point, you swich uk to Norway. You will have saved up some cash and might buy the needed carrier when you do. At some point, you will no longer have a landrout to cauc. At this point, you should have at least 80 americans between morocco and cauc, and about 10 TTs. Then you move all of your TTs to the med, and start landing 20 units/ round in the weakest spot you can find on the mainland. At the same time, uk will round 10 units per round, germany will collapse like a house of cards. I have done this countless times against good players (this is what happens when you win against them).


Ahh, I see.  I think my problem here is that this is a face-to-face tournament played under time controls (that's how I've been practicing, too), so I won't be able to employ the safer strategies in the strict (5 hour) time limit I'll have to get into a good position.  That would probably explain why I haven't considered the slower strategies that both you and MarineIguana suggested.

I played a practice game with this strategy earlier today (and had the Soviets focus on turtling) and the Allies won handily, although it took an exceedingly long time to do so.

As always, thanks for the advice.
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Kreuzfeld
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« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2017, 10:57:01 pm »
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Buying DDs is always bad. TTs are amazing combatunits in this game. Try running a combatsim with fighters against 1 BB and TTs, find out how many you need. It is alot. The DDs are really not worth the extra factor.

That's two of you know that have pointed out that DDs are a bad buy.  I've looked into it a bit and I'm starting to think that a CV buy B1 might be the best bet for not dying to the German Fleet (it helps to be able to land two FTRs on it to basically give yourself 36 IPCs worth of defense for a 16 IPC investment).  Thanks for the advice.  Correct me if I'm wrong on the CV though.

CVs are good. However, the reason DDs are bad, isn't that it is a "bad" combatship if you plan on attacking. It is just that the TTs really are good combatships in the game. You will  usually have enough heavy ships surviving the first turn. Those ships combined with TTs will be enough to stop the luftwaffe. The TTs really are great combatships in this game. (seriously)


Yes Smiley, but not through the entire game.
Round 1-5ish is when you ship to africa. Then, at some point, you swich uk to Norway. You will have saved up some cash and might buy the needed carrier when you do. At some point, you will no longer have a landrout to cauc. At this point, you should have at least 80 americans between morocco and cauc, and about 10 TTs. Then you move all of your TTs to the med, and start landing 20 units/ round in the weakest spot you can find on the mainland. At the same time, uk will round 10 units per round, germany will collapse like a house of cards. I have done this countless times against good players (this is what happens when you win against them).


Ahh, I see.  I think my problem here is that this is a face-to-face tournament played under time controls (that's how I've been practicing, too), so I won't be able to employ the safer strategies in the strict (5 hour) time limit I'll have to get into a good position.  That would probably explain why I haven't considered the slower strategies that both you and MarineIguana suggested.

I played a practice game with this strategy earlier today (and had the Soviets focus on turtling) and the Allies won handily, although it took an exceedingly long time to do so.

As always, thanks for the advice.

I usually land in africa until my pacific fleet makes it to the atlantic. then I split and send uk into norway and start landing in the americans in europe the round after that.
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DouchemanMacgee
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« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2017, 01:56:32 pm »
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CVs are good. However, the reason DDs are bad, isn't that it is a "bad" combatship if you plan on attacking. It is just that the TTs really are good combatships in the game. You will  usually have enough heavy ships surviving the first turn. Those ships combined with TTs will be enough to stop the luftwaffe. The TTs really are great combatships in this game. (seriously)

I understand that TTs are the best ship economy-wise, but I believe that a CV may be an extremely cost-efficient buy for the first turn only (because you have the two FTRs in UK that can land on the carrier no problem).  Later in the game the CV would become extremely cost-inefficient, of course (you're paying 16 for a 1 HP 3 DEF when you could be spending that same 16 IPC for 2 HP of 1 DEF that can also transport units).


I usually land in africa until my pacific fleet makes it to the atlantic. then I split and send uk into norway and start landing in the americans in europe the round after that.

Do you advocate sending the Indian Fleet south?  What do you do about the TT in SZ59?  When I used to play Revised/42/42SE I always remember going out of my way to eliminate it (as forcing Japan to buy more TTs is a good way to buy the allies precious time).
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