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Author Topic: G1 Builds/Opening  (Read 1367 times)
DouchemanMacgee
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« on: February 19, 2017, 10:44:23 am »
+1

I'm trying to get back into Revised to get ready for an upcoming tournament but I'm pretty rusty.  What's the meta on German Openings looking like these days?

I haven't played Revised in a while (moved on to G40 like most people), but when I did everyone seemed to love dropping a Carrier in the Baltic G1 (to delay the UK Fleet for a bit).

Is this still the norm, or have their been major developments in the last 6 or so years?
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Kreuzfeld
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« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2017, 10:55:06 pm »
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hi! noone has answerd, so I would reccomend reading MarineIguanas posts in the thread. I have played a lot of games on BGO and can with confidence say that it is a very good answer.

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=37688.0
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DouchemanMacgee
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« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2017, 11:06:32 am »
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Hi.  Thanks for the reply!

Anyway, I'm going to quote MarineIguana here and ask a few questions with the hopes that either he or you can answer.


This is almost certainly more advice than you are looking for. I'm going to give you the secret for playing near perfectly as Germany. This is tried and tested against the best Revised Axis and Allies players in the world across more than 500 games.

Might have been more than OP wanted in that thread but I'm gonna need all the help I can get if I wanna pull out a W in this tournament...


I'm assuming a bid of 9 by germany to ukraine, west russia, and libya

Well that's different right off the bat.  From what I'm read in terms of tournament reports for this other tournament they've been giving the Allies a +3 bid for the last two or so years.  I think the difference is that online Revised games are played under LHTR, while this tournament is on a stricter time limit (4 hours, 30 minutes which roughly translates to about 5-6 turns depending on how fast people are playing).

That being said if the meta at this tournament is just outright flawed I can probably take advantage of that.


I'm also assuming that russia attacked ukraine with 4 inf, 1 art, 3 tanks, 2 fig ; west russia with 9 inf, 1 tank, 1 art
I'm assuming this game is low luck with no tech

The opening is what I've used as my standard for years now, so I'm assuming that any intelligent opponent I face will be using it (it's the only way to not end up with Germany stacking Ukr. and winning with relative ease iirc).

One rough thing about all of this is that the tournament I'm prepping for is 100% luck (So someone can play perfectly and still lose because RNG).  No tech though so that part is fine.


I'm assuming your goal is to maximize your probability of winning against an opponent.

More like holding on to at some group of Egypt/W. Europe/E. Europe/Ukr/Norway for 5 turns while Japan captures an equal or greater amount of Sink/India/Novo/Australia/Hawaii but same difference really.


The most common mistake I see with Germany players is that they think they're on the offensive. In reality, Germany is a very defensive country that receives allied pressure, while Japan pressures Russia.

I remember when I was a noob and bought 8 tanks/turn as Germany.  2004 was a simpler time for sure.


Best practices:
1. buy almost all infantry. I usually spend 90+% of my germany IPC buying only infantry for the first 15-30 rounds. Eventually, Germany gets to a point where it can stack 3 territories with over 80 units each. This makes it difficult for UK to land and support Russia past round 30.
2. Prefer to attack and stack territories. This means moving a large force of units in an attack, so that the opponent can't counter. Axis and Allies is inherently a zero-sum game, so you win by accumulating profit through income or battles. Generally, the most profitable battles are: attacking & stacking > trading efficiently > attack & retreat > doing nothing > trading inefficiently.
As a general rule, germany can stack 2-3 territories safely against a strong allies. Always stack berlin (obviously), 2nd stack can alternate between France and Italy, 3rd stack between Karelia/Eastern Europe/Ukraine
3. Try to keep Germany strong. It's okay to make large trades against Russia, but avoid large trades with UK or USA unless it's for a large profit. The most common way I win against top allies is to accumulate stacks of 100+ infantry as Germany. Japan accumulates as well around Persia. By round 30-40, Japan has 300+ units and eventually forces Allies off Russia.

While all of these points are valid that all aspiring A&A players should memorize, the rules of this tournament don't give enough time to play out 100+ round slugfests, although the idea sounds pretty fun/masochistic.  Reminds me of the Classic games I'd spend weeks playing after I read those papers on Inf stacking back in the day.


Standard buy for germany is 10 inf, 2 tanks.

This was already my build so that makes me happy.


>1 sub, 3 fig to sz13

Can you pull this off reliably with just 1 SUB, 2 FTR in a 100% luck scenario?
Battle calc says it's 90% chance to win with a 5/9 chance of both FTRs surviving.  A gamble for sure but it frees up a FTR to send to Egypt instead.  Which leads me to:


EDIT:  See my HUGGEEEE MISTAKE below...

>3 inf, 1 art, 1 tank, 1 bomber to egypt

This assumes I'd be lucky enough to get an axis bid out of someone at this tournament, which seems unlikely given the results of previous years.  Because of this, I'm going to need the extra FTR if I want to break Egypt.  I could always pull the FTR from the SZ13 attack, but I don't like to auto-lose 1/12 games, as MarineIguana points out:

EDIT:  I JUST MADE A HUUUUUGE MISTAKE!!!
Turns out you can't pull another FTR to SZ13 because none of the others can reach!  Looks like I'm gonna have to choose between risking an Egypt loss and risking the B-Ship unless I can fine-tune the opening more...


The other fighter (from Balkans, as the Ukr one usually dies in the R1 Ukr attack) that can reach is needed for sz15. If you attack sz15, there's a 15% chance the battle goes badly where the battleship transport needs to retreat or battleship gets traded against uk destroyer. If either scenario happens, the game is effectively over against a top player. I prefer not to auto-lose 15% of my games as axis.

Anyway,


>1 battleship, 1 trans, 1 fig to sz15
>appropriate forces to trade ukraine. usually 2-3 inf + 1 fighter. Possibly as much as 3 inf, 1 tank, 1 fig if 3 russia tanks survived

Am I to assume everything else is being sent to Karelia?  How much am I leaving in E. Europe to Deadzone Ukr?  What's the practical advantage of stacking Karelia over trying to hold Ukr reliably?  Is it the potential to deadzone Norway (slowing Allied progress in a KGF)?


Typical non-combat:
stack france. usually with 2 inf, 2 tanks, 4 fighters, 1 aa
stack karelia. usually 8-9 inf, 4 tanks, 1 aa
stack germany
empty belorussia or 1 inf
africa stacks libya

All fine, aside from my gripes over Karelia.  What do you do if the USSR stacks Ukr R2?  Germany can't really attack W. Rus. (Since the stack in Ukr and the spawned units in Caucasus and Moscow can all dive on it.), and if you try to charge Archangel Russia has enough time to shift enough forces to Moscow to force the Germans back to Karelia.  So at that point you're just handing the Soviets Ukr for free, unless I'm missing something.

I'm not trying to come off as an elitist of A&A pro by any means, I'm just rusty and don't know how to dynamic of the Eastern front as evolved over time.

By the way, what is BGO?  I've only ever played A&A using TripleA.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2017, 07:44:43 pm by DouchemanMacgee » Logged
Kreuzfeld
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« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2017, 02:57:46 am »
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hi! Just 2 points.

I would not play the axis with less than 9 in bid, I would take the allies every day with a bid of 8 (axis +8). If you get to play the allies at a 0 bid, Congrats, you should win Smiley

The reason you usually don't stack karelia is because the russian will often deadzone it while killing ukraine.  I have experimented with only taking W russia and Building 3 inf 3 tanks, or taking both w russia and building either 3 inf 3 tanks, or 4 tanks 1 art. If the russian does not take ukraine and builds 3 inf 3 tanks, he will kill anything you can put in karelia. (he is just stronger than you). If he does ukraine and W russia, and you stack karelia, you will hold it, however you will have less in south russia and russia will have a very good income in most of the game. Russia will take karelia back at some point if the allies playes well

Oh, and BGO = board-gaming online. it is a website with a lot of axisplaying
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DouchemanMacgee
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« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2017, 02:33:07 pm »
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I'll give it a shot then!  Maybe this tournament will be super easy after all!!

I agree with you in not stacking Karelia with Germany.  It seems absurd to me.  Was I reading MarineIguana's advice wrong?  He seemed to be advocating stacking Karelia on G1.
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Kreuzfeld
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« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2017, 12:11:27 am »
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hi! Yeah, I think Marine is right.

There are two russian openers.
1. Only do W russia and stack it.  Buy 3 inf and 3 Tanks.

2. Do W Russia and Ukraine.

If USSR does 1, you can't stack Kareila, if he does 2, then you can stack karelia.

I think 2 is better for russia, but 1 is not uncommon, because it prevents stacking karelia.
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DouchemanMacgee
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« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2017, 10:11:00 am »
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I'm more of an advocate for hitting Ukr on R1 myself.  Letting that Fighter and Tank escape for it doesn't seem like the best idea...
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TripleA Xray
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« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2017, 01:10:25 pm »
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I have my doubt about taking Ukrain in R1. So far I've not been lucky with this move! It cost me much more than i get for it! I wonder whether it is worth the risk! Why trading 2 tanks for this tank and fighter? The value of a russian tank seem much highter to me than a german one or even a fighter early game. I seem to be much better with Russia if i take WR and Belo Russia! Russia in my game is very well able to hold off Germany and Japan in the early game, until the Allies arrive!
Any thoughts on this?
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DouchemanMacgee
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« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2017, 06:07:17 pm »
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I have my doubt about taking Ukrain in R1. So far I've not been lucky with this move! It cost me much more than i get for it! I wonder whether it is worth the risk! Why trading 2 tanks for this tank and fighter? The value of a russian tank seem much highter to me than a german one or even a fighter early game. I seem to be much better with Russia if i take WR and Belo Russia! Russia in my game is very well able to hold off Germany and Japan in the early game, until the Allies arrive!
Any thoughts on this?

What's your R1 buy?

I usually buy 2 INF/2 ART/2 TANK to make up for the tanks I'm losing by going into Ukr.

I switch to more INF-focused builds after R1, of course.

To me, any German FTR that I can take out is one less FTR that can go after UK's navy.  The less Germany has to throw at the UK Navy, the faster the UK can start landing (or threatening to land) troops in Norway/E Europe/Karelia/W Europe.  And once UK starts forcing Germany to pull troops to guard those territories, the USSR will see a good chunk of weight lifted from its shoulders (meaning it can afford to send troops to India/Sink/kill Germany/whatever).
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Kreuzfeld
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« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2017, 10:15:16 pm »
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R1 I get 3 inf 3 tank.
R2 I get ftr, and art/inf (mostly inf). So, with 26, I would get 1 ftr, 1 art and 4 inf

That 3rd ftr is needed to schirmish on a 3 area front.  USSR should in general have more tanks and less inf. The tanks are good because they can stand in w russia, and threathen any japanese stack apporaching. that will buy you a couple of extra turns at least.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2017, 10:17:22 pm by Kreuzfeld » Logged
TripleA Xray
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« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2017, 01:31:43 pm »
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The thing is: i have no problem putting any pressure on Germany when i don't do Ukrain R1. For a couple of rounds Russia can keep agressive. I would buy 2 tanks R1. 1 FGT R2 and 1 tank in later rounds. With my 4 starting tanks i have a very potent force. In UK2 or 3 i start landing in Norway to support Russia. I don't see how 6 fighters can stop me there. The ships in the mediteranean Sea are lost to me! The uk home fleet is quite save in the first turn. I use it as a base for my future fleet. Uk1 I build a carrier to expand the fleet. If all german units position to strike my fleet i buy more defence, or i combine with the US first! I position myself to strike the Baltic fleet at some point. After that it is not worth loosing the fighters at a sea battle that will cost the UK a few transports at most.
In the mid game Germany is focused mainly on landings from the Allies. Then Russia is starting to fight off the Japanese with his tanks. Russia has an income of around 26 IPC with which it can survive the mid game easily. End game he will be under great pressure from Japan! But if the Allies have normal luck and do nothing stupid, Germany is dead or close to it!
So my conclusion so far is that you sacrifice russian tanks for a chance on a german fighter, that would harm the UK a little bit. But the UK can counter this with a buy of an extra ship. In my philosophy that trade off is not so optimal.
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DouchemanMacgee
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« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2017, 07:33:25 pm »
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The thing is: i have no problem putting any pressure on Germany when i don't do Ukrain R1.

How do you keep the initiative if you're letting the Germans escape Ukr G1? On G1 Germany can just withdraw the bulk of its forces to a E. Europe stack and start trading Ukr. while easily overwhelming the Allies in North Africa and ferrying a decent stream of units through the Middle East to ensure that India is securely in Japanese hands by J3.  If you're just sitting in Caucasus/W. Rus trading Ukr you're giving Germany a free hand to do whatever they want elsewhere.

For a couple of rounds Russia can keep aggressive. I would buy 2 tanks R1.
I agree.

1 FGT R2 and 1 tank in later rounds.
I agree with the 1 TANK/turn philosophy (to keep a mobile and offensive-capable army on the board at all times), but I don't agree with the FTR on R2.  I understand that you can feasibly snipe the Mediterranean Fleet with 3 FTR (or at least sink the transport) but if a competent Germany scouts a lack of land units what's stopping them from pouncing on Ukr, Arch or W. Rus with everything (which in turn forces Russia to bring everything to the German front, giving the Japanese a free hand to take Sink/India/Persia).

With my 4 starting tanks i have a very potent force. In UK2 or 3 i start landing in Norway to support Russia. I don't see how 6 fighters can stop me there.

Germany can either subsist without Norway or simply deadzone it by stacking Ukr.  It's going to take a decently large stack of Transports to pull together a large enough force to actively hold Norway.

The point of the FTR cloud isn't to actually kill the UK Fleet (It can't do that cost-efficiently), but to force the Fleet to remain in one place at a time (if any transports split off from the main fleet to land in far away places the FTRs and Bomber can easily wipe them out with a pretty minimal chance of a loss).

The other point of the FTR cloud is to allow Germany to commit to battles against small landing parties without having to leave as many units behind to die in the counterattack.  Let me give an example:

UK amphibs into Norway, taking 2 INF/2 ART.  They kill a lone INF defender without losses.

Germany sends 3 INF + 6 FTR + 1 Bomber to attack Norway (a bit of a reach, but it's for the sake of the example so bear with me here).

Under low luck, UK gets 1 hit and a 1/3 chance at a second (INF and ART defend on a 2, 2*4=8, 8/6 = 1 + 1/3).  Germany will get 4 hits under low luck (3*1 + 6*3 + 1*4 = 25, 25/6 = 4 + 1/6).

So Germany will one-shot 14 IPCs worth of material while losing 9 overall (I'm assuming that the 1-2 INF that survive will die on the following British turn when they commit another landing party).  That's pretty good value if you ask me, especially if UK is committing 100% to Europe (and losing 7+ IPCs between India/Persia/Trans-Jordan/Egypt).

The ships in the mediteranean Sea are lost to me! The uk home fleet is quite save in the first turn. I use it as a base for my future fleet. Uk1 I build a carrier to expand the fleet. If all german units position to strike my fleet i buy more defence, or i combine with the US first! I position myself to strike the Baltic fleet at some point.

What's your timetable for killing the Baltic, out of curiosity?

I usually try to have it dead by B2 (you can do it with a B1 FTR+Destroyer+Trans build).
Sometimes you have to delay until B3 if Germany goes with a naval opening, but in those kinds of games an aggressive USSR can usually win on its own.

After that it is not worth loosing the fighters at a sea battle that will cost the UK a few transports at most.

I agree, but remember the whole point of the pressure is to force the UK player to spend turns investing in a navy.  This buys Germany much needed time to stack aggressively in the USSR's direction, forcing them to keep their men focused on the Germans and giving Japan time to get its IPC levels up to snuff with the Allies/put a drain on the Soviet and British Economies.

In the mid game Germany is focused mainly on landings from the Allies. Then Russia is starting to fight off the Japanese with his tanks. Russia has an income of around 26 IPC with which it can survive the mid game easily. End game he will be under great pressure from Japan! But if the Allies have normal luck and do nothing stupid, Germany is dead or close to it!

But you've never inflicted a serious loss on German hardware in this scenario.  All Germany has to do is build heavy INF stacks all day (with the occasional Tank thrown in to harass the Soviets), and the Allies are going to take an awfully long time to start hurting Germany.

Additionally, if Russia is sending 5-10 IPCs of Tanks East every turn what's stopping Germany from moving the E Europe stack into Ukr and putting the Russians in a desperate situation (guarding Caucasus and W. Rus simultaneously).

So my conclusion so far is that you sacrifice russian tanks for a chance on a german fighter, that would harm the UK a little bit. But the UK can counter this with a buy of an extra ship. In my philosophy that trade off is not so optimal.
The Ukr fight can be won pretty reliably R1 actually:

R:
3 INF (from Caucasus)
1 ART (from Caucasus)
2 TANK (1 from Caucasus, 1 from Moscow)
2 FTR (1 from Karelia, 1 from Moscow)

Vs.

G:
3 INF
1 ART
1 TANK
1 FTR

TripleA gives the Soviets an 85% chance to win with, on average, both FTRs and a lone tank surviving.

So value-wise USSR loses 23 IPC (everything but the FTR) while the Germans lose 28.  A USSR win no matter how you split it.
It seems like a narrow advantage but remember the USSR gets 3 of those IPCs back by virtue of taking Ukr.
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Kreuzfeld
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« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2017, 12:16:27 am »
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I think you might be too defensive as the allies. I have quite a few games as the allies and rarely lose.

The reason for doing ukraine is simple. You save british fleet and can lock down the med fast. That German fighter is very important in the med and africa on G1.

Depending on the result of G1, should should have some very good options on UK1. I will assume germany did place 2 units in libya, sent the med fleet with 1 ftr to 15, while sending 1 inf + 1 art from italy and 1 bomber to egypt.

Germany will most likely have taken egypt and have about 4 landunits left. he will have 5 ftrs and 1 bomber (instead of 6 fighters and 1 bomber). Where germany has placed these 5 fighters is very important. Usually, germany will not be able to place all of the fighters in france/Libya.

I reccomend uk build in this situation of 1 ftr, 5 inf and 1 tank.

 You can hit egypt with 2 inf from india, 1 from TJ, 1 ftr from india and 1 bomber from uk. This attack will usually kill every german unit there, and you will quite often have an inf left to take the terr. You can at the same time send your entire UK fleet to morocco.  If US sends its fleet to help you, you will have a situation where germany only have 1 inf and 1 art in africa. while you will have 2 UK inf and 2 tank in morocco and 2 us inf, 1 us art and 1 us tank. Your fleet of morocco will be: 1 UK BB, 2 UK TT, 1 US DD, 2 US TT and 1 ussr sub. At this point The german fighterposition is vitally important. If he can reach with 4 ftrs and 1 bomber, you are safe, if he has 5 ftrs and 1 bomber, this move does not work.

At this point, the german position in africa is misrable. he has 2 landunits, you have 8, you will continue to shufle landunits down there until you have enough UK fleet to switch to the north. Those landunits will run as fast as they can to caucasuss, (you can ususally get between 10 and 30 landunits through before japan holds persia).

So, If you kill that ukrainian fitr, you will get one more round of reinforcements to caucasus and lock down africa on UK1. I have done this soo many times, and this is standard play among top players. The one wrench here is the german baltic fleet. A lot of germans will send it out on G1 to prevent this move. You have to be aware of it and calculate your fleet.
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DouchemanMacgee
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« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2017, 07:55:00 pm »
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I think you might be too defensive as the allies. I have quite a few games as the allies and rarely lose.

The reason for doing ukraine is simple. You save british fleet and can lock down the med fast. That German fighter is very important in the med and africa on G1.

I think you have me backwards.  I'm an advocate of striking Ukr. on R1.  I do not like Russian Openings where you let Ukr. go.
I agree with you for the exact reasons you've stated.

Depending on the result of G1, should should have some very good options on UK1. I will assume germany did place 2 units in libya, sent the med fleet with 1 ftr to 15, while sending 1 inf + 1 art from italy and 1 bomber to egypt.

Germany will most likely have taken egypt and have about 4 landunits left. he will have 5 ftrs and 1 bomber (instead of 6 fighters and 1 bomber). Where germany has placed these 5 fighters is very important. Usually, germany will not be able to place all of the fighters in france/Libya.
Germany can easily place 4 FTRs in France and 1 FTR/1 BOMBER in Libya.

I reccomend uk build in this situation of 1 ftr, 5 inf and 1 tank.

I'm more for a Navy build (1 DD/1 TT/1 FTR) on B1.  I don't build land units because I ferry the tank from Canada to UK and simply land 1 INF in Norway, supported by the air units UK starts with (1 INF/1 ART if the Germans left more than 1 INF there to defend).  That way I have the spawn units to fill my transport fleet next turn for a harder landing somewhere.

You can hit egypt with 2 inf from india, 1 from TJ, 1 ftr from india and 1 bomber from uk. This attack will usually kill every german unit there, and you will quite often have an inf left to take the terr. You can at the same

time send your entire UK fleet to morocco.  If US sends its fleet to help you, you will have a situation where germany only have 1 inf and 1 art in africa. while you will have 2 UK inf and 2 tank in morocco and 2 us inf, 1 us art and 1 us tank. Your fleet of morocco will be: 1 UK BB, 2 UK TT, 1 US DD, 2 US TT and 1 ussr sub. At this point The german fighterposition is vitally important. If he can reach with 4 ftrs and 1 bomber, you are safe, if he has 5 ftrs and 1 bomber, this move does not work.

You don't even have to do that if you buy the fleet I suggest and move the Russian Sub to SZ6 (the one right next to the Baltic) on R2.

The hypothetical UK Fleet I'm suggesting is 1 BB/1 DD/3 TT
Which would be facing the max Germany can send its way:  2 SUB/4 FTR

UK would lose the fleet to that attack but Germany only comes out with an average of 2 FTR.  This means that Germany is effectively losing a large share of its air force to kill a fleet that the UK will happily rebuild on the very next turn.

At this point, the german position in africa is misrable. he has 2 landunits, you have 8, you will continue to shufle landunits down there until you have enough UK fleet to switch to the north. Those landunits will run as fast as they can to caucasuss, (you can ususally get between 10 and 30 landunits through before japan holds persia).

In most games I've played Germany just uses the Medi fleet to snipe Ukr.
Are you sure the shuttle of troops from UK -> N. Africa -> Caucasus is the best option?  Every turn you're not threatening Europe is another turn Germany has to setup giant stacks and/or stack Ukraine.

So, If you kill that ukrainian fitr, you will get one more round of reinforcements to caucasus and lock down africa on UK1. I have done this soo many times, and this is standard play among top players. The one wrench here is the german baltic fleet. A lot of germans will send it out on G1 to prevent this move. You have to be aware of it and calculate your fleet.

I agree with these yes.  Although if Germany sails its fleet out you can easily intercept and destroy it with the SZ2 Fleet (The BB and the TT) + the 2 FTRs.
Yes this delays your fleet uniting with the Americans but if you build navy B1 and move the Soviet sub to link up with the British R2 the combined fleet can easily repulse the 4 FTR/ 1 BOMBER Germany can send your way.
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Argothair
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« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2017, 11:48:24 pm »
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Wait, you're really happy to trade Britain's 1 BB / 1 DD / 3 TT for Germany's 2 SS / 2 FTR?

Aside from the fact that you are trading 60 British TUV for 36 German TUV, if Germany positions the rest of its air force properly, then it can hit Britain's next fleet with a minimum of 3 FTR / 1 BMR, or more if Germany built a new plane (not unreasonable when you know you're ordering an immediate attack on the Royal Navy). What can Britain put in the water with one round of income that can stand up to that kind of follow-up attack?
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