The time involved for decision to build and when the capital ship was finally produced could be up to 3 years. To represent this, the build time should be expanded to 2* turns. With a down-payment of half on turn 1 and final payment on completion. Now I make a distinction on the *final turn, because the player has the choice to delay completion if situations dictate. Treat these partially built capital ships same as damaged, they can take hits, but cannot defend. OPTIONALLY: Allow a 1 turn build at full price, but provide a 2 IPC incentive discount per turn delayed.
@Carolina:
The time involved for decision to build and when the capital ship was finally produced could be up to 3 years. To represent this, the build time should be expanded to 2* turns. With a down-payment of half on turn 1 and final payment on completion. Now I make a distinction on the *final turn, because the player has the choice to delay completion if situations dictate. Treat these partially built capital ships same as damaged, they can take hits, but cannot defend. **OPTIONALLY: Allow a 1 turn build at full price, but provide a 2 IPC incentive discount per turn delayed. **
This 2 turns schedule with 2 IPCs discounts can provide a real opportunity to balance warship units with better cost ratio for Cruiser and Battleship.
The real balanced cost structure should have put Cruiser at 10 and BB at 18 IPCs.
Carriers were balanced at 16 IPCs, but allowing the discount seems not that OP, Fgs and TcBs keeps their usual cost.
I would simplify things a bit about half built, 1 hit but full defense and no move possible (nor offense).
And I would put Cruiser in the 2 turns scheduled, even if not considered Capital ships.
So you can built Cruiser in 1 Turn for 12 IPCs, or a more balanced at 10 IPCs in two turns.
Half built Cruiser still get 1 hit and full defense @3.
I have been thinking of something similar, and I think 2 turns is a good place to start for capital ships. Was even thinking 3 turns for capital ships (BB carrier), 2 turns for cruiser, and same turn for dd, sub, tpt (same as OOB for smaller ships). I’m not sure about being able to fully attack a ship being built, or allowing it to def (no guns in the early stages) but maybe allow SBR on a ship being built up to 6 ipcs (maybe only 3 IPCs)? As the owner of the ship you must repair damage before paying for the next build level.
Below was edited:
For purchasing say a BB in 3 turns you have to put down half (10 IPCs), and the next turn you can advance it to the next level for min half the balance (5 IPCs). Then on the 3rd turn you pay it out for the remaining 5 IPCs. If it takes damage from SBR you have to buy out damage before you can pay to advance to the next build level.
BB 3 turns to build cost 20 IPC T1-10IPC, T2-5 IPC, T3-5 IPC
CV 3 turns to build cost 16 IPC T1-8 IPC, T2-4 IPC, T3-4 IPC
CA 2 turns to build cost 12 IPC T1-6 IPC, T2 6 IPC
@WILD:
I have been thinking of something similar, and I think 2 turns is a good place to start for capital ships. Was even thinking 3 turns for capital ships (BB carrier), 2 turns for cruiser, and same turn for dd, sub, tpt (same as OOB for smaller ships). I’m not sure about being able to fully attack a ship being built, or allowing it to def (no guns in the early stages) but maybe allow SBR on a ship being built up to 6 ipcs? As the owner of the ship you must repair damage before paying for the next build level.
For purchasing say a BB in 3 turns you have to put down half (10 IPCs), and the next turn you can advance it to the next level for min half the balance (5 IPCs). Then on the 3rd turn you pay it out for the remaining 5 IPCs. If is takes damage from SBR you have to buy out damage before you can pay to advance to the next build level.
On half-built warships, my focus was on board game playability.
It is easier to put a piece on its side to figure the incomplete built. As such, it is similar to damaged Carrier (no flight ops, 1 hit) and BB (1 hit remaining) without movement allowance. Cruiser on its side still works as damaged Carrier and BB (full defense roll @2 /@4), so I give full defense @3 to half-built Cruiser too.
TheTactical bombing raids on units (instead of bases) seems an unnecessary complification, even if from a certain POV can be seen as more accurate.
I would considered the lower cost of two or three turn built.
A three turns built, bring another issue more drastically vs DDs and Subs. Operational warships working for two turns before Capitals ships going to war is like a waste of IPCs usefulness.
I’m just not sold on a ship in the building stages being able to fire, nor am I sure that war ships would be coming into shipyards to attack them. Plus if say you lay out 10 IPCs for a BB, and they attack it when it is on its side then the BB is removed from play?
@WILD:
I’m just not sold on a ship in the building stages being able to fire, nor am I sure that war ships would be coming into shipyards to attack them. Plus if say you lay out 10 IPCs for a BB, and they attack it when it is on its side then the BB is removed from play?
Yes, like any other damaged unit.
You would have paid half their cost, still a fair investment into combat.
6 for CA,
8 for CV,
10 for BB.
On second turn (at -2 IPCs discount purchase),
CA would need 4 IPCs,
CV, 6 IPCs
BB, 8 IPCs.
I really emphasized the 2 IPCs discount to at least make better optimized combat units BB and CA.
2 turns is simpler from a game POV.
Adding special attack on half-built units seems an unrequired accuracy to bring long term planing built up theme.
2 turns is sometimes an hour of time play. Player will feel it takes time to get a war ready warship units.
I think if units in the build stages are placed on the board you should use a maker to show stages of build, not laying it on its side to possibly confuse it with a damaged BB that auto fixes next turn.
I think the logical way to handle it would be air attacks (SBR), or maybe include sub attacks (roll one dice place damage)?
@WILD:
I think if units in the build stages are placed on the board you should use a maker to show stages of build, not laying it on its side to possibly confuse it with a damaged BB that auto fixes next turn.
I think the logical way to handle it would be air attacks (SBR), or maybe include sub attacks (roll one dice place damage)?
Logical probably.
But not really simpler or funnier.
I don’t like that you could possibly lose your entire investment with one attack especially if you go to a 3 turn build for capital ships (which is closer to actual builds, but still about half if you consider a game round as about six months).
Plus there could still be confusion of which ships are damaged (auto repair), and which are being built laying on their side.
Several games like HBG Global War 1936 has a build chart that you place ships on and progress them through. It is off map, and the enemy can’t attack ships being built. Some powers like Italy Germany or UK could have a really hard time building a capital ship if you were able to destroy it in port. Maybe it would be better off map?
I wouldn’t mind being able to do damage to ships being built. Maybe equal to half of the original first payment or something, but not take them out while being built.
In the construction process that was used for for a WWII-era capital ship, as far as I know the weapon systems were among the last elements to be installed. The hull and the engines were built first, then the superstructure, and only then was the armament (guns and turrets) added. So a partially finished ship might be able to move under its own power, but it wouldn’t be able to fight. The French battleship Jean Bart was just barely able to escape southern France and steam to North Africa, but if I remember correctly it spent the whole war without any main guns installed.
@WILD:
Several games like HBG Global War 1936 has a build chart that you place ships on and progress them through. It is off map, and the enemy can’t attack ships being built. Some powers like Italy Germany or UK could have a really hard time building a capital ship if you were able to destroy it in port. Maybe it would be better off map?
I wouldn’t mind being able to do damage to ships being built. Maybe equal to half of the original first payment or something, but not take them out while being built.
@WILD:
I don’t like that you could possibly lose your entire investment with one attack especially if you go to a 3 turn build for capital ships (which is closer to actual builds, but still about half if you consider a game round as about six months).
Plus there could still be confusion of which ships are damaged (auto repair), and which are being built laying on their side.
I agree these points create issues.
IMO, off-map is OK but must be clearly announce to other players, to not be taken as unspent IPCs.
I like this idea! I would give the partially constructed ships 1 hit, no movement, no offensive or defensive value, and extend the 2 IPC discount to both phases of the build.
So, if you want a cruiser, you can pay 12 IPCs now, or pay 4 IPCs to get a nearly worthless husk, and 4 more IPCs next turn to upgrade it to a cruiser.
If you want a BB, you can pay 20 now, or 8 for a husk and 8 next turn to upgrade the husk to a BB.
3 turn construction with variable schedule costs sounds awful to me – too much bookkeeping, too hard to physically represent, not related to the rest of the game. I’d rather play Panamax!
@CWO:
The French battleship Jean Bart was just barely able to escape southern France and steam to North Africa, but if I remember correctly it spent the whole war without any main guns installed.
Work on the ship continued at slow pace, and one of its main turrets was operational during the 1942 Naval Battle of Casablanca. But it turned out to be difficult to complete the ship even after the war, so it is indeed an excellent illustration of the point made in this thread.
@Baron:
@WILD:
Several games like HBG Global War 1936 has a build chart that you place ships on and progress them through. It is off map, and the enemy can’t attack ships being built. Some powers like Italy Germany or UK could have a really hard time building a capital ship if you were able to destroy it in port. Maybe it would be better off map?
I wouldn’t mind being able to do damage to ships being built. Maybe equal to half of the original first payment or something, but not take them out while being built.@WILD:
I don’t like that you could possibly lose your entire investment with one attack especially if you go to a 3 turn build for capital ships (which is closer to actual builds, but still about half if you consider a game round as about six months).
Plus there could still be confusion of which ships are damaged (auto repair), and which are being built laying on their side.
I agree these points create issues.
IMO, off-map is OK but must be clearly announce to other players, to not be taken as unspent IPCs.
Yea I think for simplicity off map would probably be best (can’t kill or damage it) and I would have a set place for these ships so everyone knows what is going on. The mobilization zones on the bottom corners of the map might work (or just place them on Saudi Arabia :wink:)
Probably keep it to just capital ships (BB and carrier), and a min of 2 turns to build. Must pay half down, then pay other half next turn. Can allow multiple payments for second half if you want extending build time if your needs change (would need to track it). I don’t think I would offer a discount, or allow to pay extra for same turn deployment either (if you want a two turn rule it should be two turns lol).
I thought about adding cruisers to the two turn build, but figured that because most see cruisers as a poor investment keeping it one turn might add to its value.
Here is kind of a twist, maybe you drop 10 IPCs and say you are building a capital ship, but you don’t have to say what it is until the next turn when you finish paying for it.
This is all getting really complicated when it doesn’t need to be. Just lower the price of capital ships and be done with it.
Battleship- 17 IPC
Aircraft Carrier- 13 IPC
I won’t bother listing what I think that all ships should cost because there is already a thread that debates ship costs and I don’t want to hijack this one. I only wanted to make the point that it would be much simpler and cleaner just to lower the cost instead.
Although I like many of the ideas here for battleships and cruisers, do we really need cheaper AC carriers? They are already very potent and over purchased.
Here is kind of a twist, maybe you drop 10 IPCs and say you are building a capital ship, but you don’t have to say what it is until the next turn when you finish paying for it.
I find this idea much simpler.
10 IPCs to the bank on first turn.
No additional, you get a 10 IPCs Cruiser on second turn.
For 4 IPCs, you get a Carrier on second turn.
And for 8, you get a Battleship.
Only Cruiser can be built in a single turn for 12 IPCs.
So builder get a choice for Cruiser.
Carrier and Battleship needs a two turns built, mandatory.
I still advocate for the 2 IPCs discount as a way to rebalanced somehow the warship cost structure.
why not be able to just upgrade a cruiser you allready own?
for 7 IPC’s for a battle ship
or just bring them damage into play
