It’s become a custom discussion every game my group plays. Before we start we decide if the Black Sea is open, we then decide if we are using interceptors/escorts. Then we talk about what to do in sz 7. All do to the wording in a rule book that makes both sides argue over the meaning every game. It’s become a big headache and I’m tired of it so I need clarification.
Attacking subs can sneak attack as long as there is no enemy destroyer present. Defending subs can sneak attack as well, as long as there is no attacking destroyer present. A hit on a sneak attack means the enemy must place a hit on a enemy ship and if it’s not a battleship which takes two hits to destroy, and remove it from the battle strip. That ship does not have the option of rolling after its destroyed and the sub after the sneak attack cannot participate in the regular round or combat after the sneak attack.
Here’s where the argument comes in. If the sub cannot participate in the regular round of combat after a sneak attack, then it cannot be taken as a casualty if the enemy ship starts to roll some hits?
Here are a couple examples that need clarification:
1. After the Russian sub non combat move, it sits in SZ 7 along with a UK Battleship and Transport. Germany comes in on combat move and moves in two subs, two fighters and a bomber. Germany rolls it’s sneak attack and hits twice. Is that both hits on the battleship or can the Russian sub absorb one of the hits?
2. Say Germany hit nothing on the sneak attack so it’s the Russian subs turn to sneak attack and it hits. There are only German subs there so the sub has to be taken as a casualty because a sub can’t hit planes. But what if Germany moved their Crusier into the battle? Can the German sub still absorb that hit or does it go to the cruiser because there are no destroyers present to “see” the subs?
3. The UK battleship hits on its defence roll. Only German subs and planes present in the battle. Again can the German subs absorb that hit or does it go to the planes because there is no destroyer present so the battleship “can’t see” the subs?
Please someone clarify these scenerios. If I have to have one more argument about the wording of this I think I might burn the game. Lol
If this helps, as far as I understand it…
Sneak attack happens only if a defending destroyer is not present. Otherwise, normal rules apply.
Submarines that have not submerged can be taken as casualties at any point. The sneak attack does not make them disappear. Casualties taken during the sneak attack, with the exception of defending submarines, do not get to return fire.
The destroyer simply disables the special sneak attack and submerge abilities of the submarine and allow air units to hit the submarine as well. A destroyer also prevents a submarine from simply moving through an enemy controlled sea zone as it must stop and engage the destroyer.
The sneak attack happens as the first phase of each round of battle. There can be situations where a destroyer prevents a sneak attack early in the battle, is destroyed and then the sneak attack is back for the next round of combat.
You could have a situation where the attacker has a destroyer and submarines and the defender does not have a destroyer present. In this situation, I believe the attacker gets the sneak attack and any units hit do not get to retaliate if they are sunk. A battleship taking a single hit will get to retaliate in the normal defending roll.
@ProtesT:
If the sub cannot participate in the regular round of combat after a sneak attack, then it cannot be taken as a casualty if the enemy ship starts to roll some hits?
Yes it can. It is involved in the combat. It can be a casualty. It just had the surprise attack advantage of its combat roll being in advance of other units, so that any hits affect the opponent before he rolls.
@ProtesT:
1. After the Russian sub non combat move, it sits in SZ 7 along with a UK Battleship and Transport. Germany comes in on combat move and moves in two subs, two fighters and a bomber. Germany rolls it’s sneak attack and hits twice. Is that both hits on the battleship or can the Russian sub absorb one of the hits?
Planes cannot hit subs unless a destroyer is present.
Germany’s subs can hit the UK subs if both sides participate in the battle rather than submerging.
@ProtesT:
2. Say Germany hit nothing on the sneak attack so it’s the Russian subs turn to sneak attack and it hits. There are only German subs there so the sub has to be taken as a casualty because a sub can’t hit planes. But what if Germany moved their Crusier into the battle? Can the German sub still absorb that hit or does it go to the cruiser because there are no destroyers present to “see” the subs?
Subs cannot hit planes, as you say, so any UK sub hits must be allocated to G naval units. Using your example, if Germany has a cruiser and a sub, then the sub can be taken as the casualty if it did not submerge.
@ProtesT:
3. The UK battleship hits on its defence roll. Only German subs and planes present in the battle. Again can the German subs absorb that hit or does it go to the planes because there is no destroyer present so the battleship “can’t see” the subs?
The German sub can take the UK battleship hit if it did not submerge.
I wonder whether there is a confusion between submerging (not participating in the battle so cannot be taken as a casualty) and surprise strike (does take part in the battle so can be taken as a casualty)?
Thank you guys for the clarification. Basically the confusion is the idea that because the sneak attack happens before the regular round of combat and the subs cannot participate in the regular round of combat after a sneak attack, then enemy ships defending in the regular round of combat cannot hit the subs which are not participating in the combat round because they participated in the sneak attack round. Basically we were looking at the sneak attack round as a whole seperate round of combat where when finished, all participating ships are 100% not involved in the regular round of combat(unable to attack again or be taken as a casualty).
Some heated arguments have occurred over this. When the UK battleship rolls a hit and with only German subs in the sz, a fighter is taken as a casualty. Or the Russian sub hitting and Germany loses its Cruiser rather then a sub. Or Germany rolling two hits on its sneak attack and UK losing its battleship because the Russian sub “cannot be seen”. Basically it was a mid reading of the rules by all parties. Funny thing is say if I am allies, I will argue the allies side but the very next game I am axis and will argue the opposite of my previous argument. LOL All of us were doing this.
Now if I can just get it into my friends heads that ships starting their combat move phase in a hostile SZ are NOT forced into combat and have the option of moving out of the SZ. This was almost a board flipper(not really) as I lost a Carrier carrying two fighters in SZ 11 because I could not find this in the rule book stating the exact steps to take in this action. Because I had a destroyer present, the German subs that were moved there in the German non-combat move phase were “detected” during USA’s combat move phase and combat was forced. Double snake eyes later, destroyer and carrier gone, fighters forced to land back in Washington and delay the USA even more.
For a good sized rule book, there are things that’s aren’t so clear in there or things that take too long to find when you have been playing for hours and just want to start wrapping up the game.
Hope the sub rules are clear now ProtesT.
Any other problems, we are here to help.
Based on reading the above posts, there seem to be a couple of other concepts you don’t quite have your head wrapped around properly. :-)
First, sea units of all types can always hit subs in combat. It is only air units that need a friendly destroyer present to hit subs.
Second, enemy subs (and/or transports) never make a sea zone hostile all by themselves, and they can always be ignored during movement. This is true whether or not you have a destroyer. So in your example of the US carrier and destroyer starting their turn in a sea zone with German subs, they can either attack the subs, move away in noncombat movement (the sea zone is not hostile), or sit right there and do nothing. It’s only when your units begin the turn in a hostile sea zone (or one in which a battle will take place because you’re attacking subs and/or transports there) that you must have your units fight or flee in combat movement.
Hope this helps.
One other thing I’d mention, that isn’t explicitly stated in this thread, is a good way to think of subs attacking and defending with their “surprise strike” is to envision that they are attacking simultaneously. I had arguments with a friend in the past where an attacking sub hit, the defender took the casualty on this sub, and then there was an argument on whether or not the defending sub could still fire back. They can, and it’s always helped me by imagining that they are both firing at the same time to understand that rule.
Exactly… Each round of combat occurs at the same time. So, surprise strikes happen on the same turn. Attacking/Defending rolls are a single turn. Surprise attack/defend are simultaneous. Unless there is a destroyer present which negates the surprise for the opposite side. Note that the destroyer must be on the attacking side to make a difference. A defending destroyer can be any allied ownership. The defender gets the benefit of the doubt in this situation. As the rules state for attackers, only those units owned by the attacker participate in the battle however all defending units participate regardless of ownership unless explicitly stated and this only applies to submarines that can submerge.
