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Author Topic: What's the usual bid?  (Read 6673 times)
Black_Elk
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« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2015, 10:38:47 am »
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Marine Iguana with the no mercy Summer Offensive  grin

Yeah I mean it's hard to argue with dumping everything into Ukraine. Unless you really want to preserve the Russian armor and just strafe, in which case it's kind of nice to kill that Baltic states tank on the cheap, and pick up your second territory there. Sometimes I'm a little wary of setting off a major trade on G1, in which case it'd be nice to have the extra art in W. Russia for the R2 counter.

The third fighter/bomber, with the third air attack doesn't really come into play until Japan starts creeping into the backfield. Until then you can usually just keep yourself to 1 or 2 attacks

I admit to not being terribly used to the full placement bid thing. With 4 extra HP into Ukraine going all-in with the Armor seems pretty safe, since its an ugly cascading trade for G. But with just 2 HP I might be a little nervous still. I mean, we've all seen when the Germans clap back on defense with a lot of hits in the first round of combat. I think the advantage there of extra offense would just be to ice it in the first round of combat.

Not sure at what point I'd start to regret giving up the bid as the Axis player. It kind of reminds me of Revised, where it's like "ok sure, if you guarantee Egypt to G, then I guess the game is balanced." But then you end up playing a rather different game than OOB was trying to lay out.

Here the situation is reversed, if you guarantee Ukraine to Russia, then sure the game might be balanced for Allies in the opener, but what does it cost you in entertainment value for Axis, by making it such a foregone conclusion?

Egypt is kinda rough in the same way, since if you give Allies too much, there's just not much for the Africa Corps to do lol.

Alas the constant issue with bids, like how far you want to push it before it swings the other direction haha
« Last Edit: August 09, 2015, 11:00:21 am by Black_Elk » Logged
Cow
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« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2015, 04:05:27 pm »
+1

The actual value of a tank is 5, not 6 like they made it. It is overpriced so you could care less about your armor tbh.  3 egypt 2 arty is solid. 1 arty to make the ukraine thing easier. 1 arty so you can smack belorussia up too. you really just want to be trading territories all game from west russia.
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Black_Elk
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« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2015, 10:09:03 pm »
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Here's a stupid bid, that would probably be fun. A Russian destroyer in sz 4 for 8 ipcs. With a Ruskie destroyer block in sz 6, the Luftwaffe would surely have more to do on G1, and the Uboats in sz 9 would be under a little bit more pressure. Do they charge ahead with sz 11, or peel one Uboat off to face down the Red October in sz 7 lol? Ridiculous but you know, if you just play the right music when you roll...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEt41bYQBgE

Or even stupider... A Russian battleship in sz 16 for a whole pile of 20 ipcs! Just a balls out attack against the German battleship in sz 15 by a Battleship of your own! Battleship vs Battleship, no holds bared.  
evil

All these stupid Russian bids appeal to me. I think the OOB board is unbalanced enough in favor of G, that it could support any of those, as a set up change, and Axis would still probably be favored. But at least then Russia would be a bit more entertaining.

There are plenty of bids that might be fun if players are willing to actually mess around, but I wouldn't expect to see that kind of stuff in a competition where every pip counts. Infantry+Art push of some sort, as usual.
Wink



« Last Edit: August 09, 2015, 10:41:06 pm by Black_Elk » Logged
Cow
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« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2015, 02:06:45 am »
+1

NOO THE DD WAS WHAT I WANTED TO DO ZZZ. I FRIGGEN HATE 1 SUB TAKING OUT A DD AND 2 TRANS IT DRIVES ME NUTS. IF I CAN COCK BLOCK SOME SHIPS AND MAKE GERMANY MAKE AN ACTUAL DECISION ZZZZ SO MUCH BETTER
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Cow
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« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2015, 02:09:34 am »
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Dangit with 12 ipc I was going to do 2 sub in sz 5 and go ham.
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Cow
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« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2015, 08:57:27 am »
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Usual bid is 15+ Axis stacked map.
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Fuhrer of the Third Reich
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« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2015, 03:26:59 pm »
+1

I will usually go with a russian bomber, due to Black elk's reasons. 12 ipc's seems like a good deal, though some people dont like to spend it all on one unit. But russia will have some flexibility with it, as in the sz 5 attack, or just sbr germany.


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Cow
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« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2015, 05:25:39 pm »
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You gotta hit belorussia, ukraine, and west russia, screw the germany fleet.
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Cow
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« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2015, 05:27:42 pm »
+3

3 arty and an inf, party like a rockstar. You got to do it big, allies lose in this map, go big or go home.

~

Other option. 1 arty india, 2 inf egypt, 1 sub india fleet. Sink Japan and take east indies, MAX DISRESPECT, make sure you grab your nuts while you roll to defend egypt if germany comes in hot, because you need the fighter to sink the japan fleet, take east indies, DROP THE KJF UK + AMERICA HIROSHIMA BOMB. NAGASAKI ALL UP IN HIS FACE.

KJF is economically easier for USA to do than europe.  #truestory. Why? Because japan needs ships to take back cash money piece flow rest in the dead. MASTA BLASTA baby. Transports not a real unit, just a little crying baby you need to protect to get your daddy in to fight with. Too many keep a daddy babies in europe make society broke, #THUGLYFE.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 05:33:28 pm by Cow » Logged
Black_Elk
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« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2015, 10:12:43 pm »
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I think its important to distinguish between what is needed to win consistently as Allies, and what is needed to simply have an enjoyable and reasonably balanced game.

Often with the bid process there this a huge emphasis on the first round combats. This is because, at least among experts, battles can be rare occurrences, and the chance to fight a battle with a clear advantage over the opponent can be even rarer. This lends itself to a situation where people start to read the entire game (and their chances of victory) into just a few opening battles.

In that respect, what Cow is suggesting, is that you want to take every opportunity you can to destroy German ground units while they are still separated, before they converge into one large force, which you're unlikely to have a crack at afterwards (or at least, not until the final confrontation for control of Moscow.)

But honestly I think the popularity of Low Luck gameplay has rather exaggerated the need for pre-placement bids. Sure in an LL match up, it's possible to crush the center fairly quickly unless the Allies bang something out right away, and turn the set up on its head. But in a normal dice game, there are a lot more opportunities for recovery. More battles with a swing, so you might see an ugly first round, but a brilliant second, or an interstellar third, and then the significance of that initial bid might seem nearly irrelevant.

My preference is for a bid to income, or for a bid to Russian aircraft, mainly because those units often survive to fight in subsequent rounds, whereas pre-placement ground or naval bids almost always result in some huge round one fight that has an out-sized impact on the whole rest of the game. Basically looking to totally secure an attack with the bid units, or to totally neutralize an enemy attack from ever occurring. For that hitpoints will always be more important than anything else.

But I like the bomber for reasons beyond just pure opening power. In some important ways I think a bomber is slightly less potent than a third fighter would be, despite costing 2 ipcs more. Because defense power is so critical for Russia, right from the start and up to the bitter end. They often don't need more reach than a 3rd fighter would give them, and 3 attacks is about as many as they can realistically run anyway, until they are willing to trade artillery (which always blows.) So I like the bomber, because it doesn't distort the defense power thing as much. Instead it puts the emphasis on attack, which I think encourages a slightly more dynamic eastern front.

Going ground, is a bit like blowing up the powderkeg all at once, do or die, whereas I see Air more like, using that same black powder little by little over time. With the idea that you end up destroying more total TUV in smaller exchanges for less of your own TUV put at risk.

But that is also an expression of my preference in playstyle. I like to give the Soviets a third air attack option, because I think it adds to the thrill. They don't have to attack 3 ways at once, and its often better to magnify in one space rather than split things up, but at least you got the option.

With 12 I'd go bomber
With 11 a fighter and save 1
With 10 a fighter

That's not because I think those particular bids give the Allies the best chances of "winning" per se, but because I like the overall gameplay more under such a set up. You're probably a lot better off, if you wanted to bid air, to bid it for UK, who can use it for deeper round 1 attacks. Or just spam hitpoints on the Eastern front to smash G, or a sub breaker as others have suggested. But I like the Red Airforce expansion. I've seen the Allies return wins when Russia has a third air unit. Not the crazy stompfest wins that a supreme Allied commander might wish for, but the kind of narrow wins and close call games that I most enjoy.

Movement exploits are at the heart of the basic game. You can see it even in Global where the Air Base unit is so important to the openers, mainly because they allow you to move those key starting air hp/attack/def pips over longer distances. In a similar way, even a single extra Air unit for Allies on the bid in 1942.2 can give you that oppertunity to launch 1 pip one tile farther, maybe just turn things so the Allies can grab the edge they need.

It's also important I think whether you are willing to engage in SBR as the Allies generally. If not then you might want to consider a larger starting bid, because it's very hard to nab Berlin or Tokyo when the Axis collect their full purse each round. Even if they can't take the center, Germany can just spam infantry till the cows come home on this board haha. So I agree the game needs something among players of equal skill, and if it's going to be a preplacement bid, I like the Bomber.

Going back to Classic/Revised, a bid to starting income is usually about double whatever the bid would be for pre-placement units.

Any number of combinations at like 15 ipcs, if you put the units down pre-placement, can return Allied wins.

And you could probably give any one of the Allies a bid of like 30 ipcs, just to their starting income for the normal round 1 purchasing phase, and it'd achieve a similar effect.

But I like the big red bomber, as a quick fix for 1942.2. It doesn't guarantee the Allies a win by any stretch, but it introduces more novelty into the game for me, and is still a pretty decent bang for the bucks. You still need a few good rolls to make it pay for itself, but it's not like the OOB situation, where Allies have a way of getting just totally steam rolled at the center, before USA can kick into a high enough gear to actually threaten an Axis capital.
 grin


« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 10:26:05 pm by Black_Elk » Logged
Cow
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« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2015, 10:50:17 pm »
+1

Axis stacked map and in dice games as well, it takes more than a few upsets to give the allies a shot at winning

I dont play allies below 15 period. Also the reason allies get crushed is because transports do not roll anymore + southern europe cannot build 6 guys like it used to so the only option is to get france... problem is usa goes after UK which totally sucks from a d day perspective.

So you pretty much need a huge bid 15-25 ipc just to have a real game.

I mean there are too many ways to lose as the allies, you lose egypt and that is just friggen great because the axis make the same money as the allies, GG.

Plus the allies got hit with tons of nerfs, cruiser in medit sea instead of bship, etc. seazones around uk is big problem too. TUV differential used to be much higher for the allies.
~

Then there is the reason why most people hate this game. 2 subs staring down at transport dds right out the gate, it is super cheesy when it works and it is expected to work, you can split them for some serious gambling... I hate it when people do that and win both battles, so annoying.

Basically allies need a 15+ bid to have a 50/50 chance at winning the game. Russia was not compensated properly for all the nerf.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2015, 08:57:41 am by Cow » Logged
Cow
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« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2015, 10:51:45 am »
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You know what... I do not take allies below 18 now. If it is a 9 vc instead of a 10+ vc game... 24-30 ipc or 2 russia turns, because after Karelia and India the axis win at russia or hawaii, which means you need to at least take france every round while holding russia, go pacific while holding russia, or lose.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2015, 11:02:52 am by Cow » Logged
Black_Elk
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« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2015, 07:18:11 pm »
+1

It's a pretty tough grind, I think the best thing America has going for it is the dead drop into Finland. It's the only repeating transport launch route that maintains the line on Berlin, but still far enough away from the German core that it's harder to hit with fighters. The problem is that the UK can't build directly into sz 3, they can shuck from sz 3, but their transports have to already be in place!

USA can shuttle between sz 3 and sz 10 with their transports, leaving their defensive fleet in place, but you have to bring enough heat with USA with the first wave of transports launched to overcome a German Karelia stack, or else Scandinavia is just a death trap. Still I think its easier to operate out of sz 3, rather than sz 8, sz 6 or sz 5, mainly because it puts the fleet further away from Berlin based fighters, while still being in striking range of the German capital, Karelia and Baltic states, and still giving you an option on France.

Ps. I think UK could probably be a wrecking machine with 18 additional ipcs.

pps. I prefer the long game, play to concession. VCs don't really do it for me. All roads lead to Moscow as far as I'm concerned. I think I'd balk at the Axis trying to claim the win at 9, if one of those 9 VCs didn't include the Russian capital haha.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2015, 10:16:17 pm by Black_Elk » Logged
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« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2015, 09:23:04 am »
+1

I think at 15 Russia starts to get scary good regardless of VC.  And Karelia starts to become holdable or defendable.   OOB Karelia is tradable for at least the first 3 rds, so adding 5 units adds at least a couple rds even if you play conservatively.  Heck that might be better.

Russia starts with:
12 inf, 3 rt, 4 arm 2 ftrs.

Fin + Bal + Bel + Wrus have
10 inf, 1 rt, 2 arm.

At 15 ipc with 17 inf, 3 rt, 4 arm, 2 ftrs  You can take out Fin, Bal, Bel and Wrus.  Ger has to use its trn to trade Kar at that point.  You may even get to keep Fin and then take Nor on R2, assuming UK was able to sink the trn on UK 1.

At 16, 17, 18 you can start to add another rt or two which puts the German trn in Sz 5 in play b/c it might free up your ftrs.  Meaning you are definitely holding Kar on R1 and 2 and gaining additional 3 ipc from Fin/Nor.  Once Ger gets up there at rd 3.  UK can land in Nor.  Ger is trading Kar on say G3-4, but UK is now in Nor/Fin protecting 3 IPCs for Russia.

And there is also the option to just use the extra inf and go heavy into Ukr and work on setting up the UK-US/Russian can-opener.  If you get any number of tanks into Ukr, UK/US boms can take out small inf stacks in say Pol and you can just blitz your armor right to Berlin if Germany isn't prepared for it.  The can-opener is more of a gambit though, but it forces G to defend Berlin a little heavier then they'd want to early in the game.

Overall Russia can be extremely powerful if you get them up to 8-10+ armor.  I know the cost of 6 ipc, but I think its gotten to the point where not enough players use them so they are actually almost underrated at this point.  The Mobility is HUGE in defending Moscow and Russia as a whole.  8-10+ arm in Wrus and/or Mos can keep the Axis off your back for a long long time.
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« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2015, 03:17:51 pm »
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Germany can usually hold karelia against a russia without any bid units, The japan bomber makes it to defend if necessary. Usually you get 2-3 hits defending on west russia which is all you need, unless Russia buys armor or something.
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