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Author Topic: What's the usual bid?  (Read 6674 times)
calvinhobbesliker
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« on: August 05, 2015, 04:46:24 pm »
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Assuming that the Allies can use the bid to place anything anywhere, with the restrictions of one unit per territory which already has units, what's a normal bid that makes the game balanced?
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craykirk
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« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2015, 08:20:58 pm »
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I like the bomber bid for Russia...  Seems like a nice addition to the first attack.
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Black_Elk
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« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2015, 09:55:16 pm »
+1

I think the bomber bid is balanced, and it would be my usual. But that is a set bid, where you really have to agree up front that both players want to try that sort of game, because otherwise no one would use their 12 ipcs that way! haha. They'd use it for UK
 grin

For just 6 ipcs to UK, you can screw Germany pretty hard. A sub in the Mediterranean makes it so that Germany has no good use for their battleship on G1. Anywhere they go it dies, and if they go nowhere it dies too, unless they build destroyers for blocking maneuvers, which is a pain. And this before you even run any attacks, just by its existence, the sub here starts messing with the Axis opener. Marine Iguana made some posts a few months back that show some of the merits of the UK sub bid for the med.

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=32952.0

I've changed my views a bit in the intervening months, on which specific bid units are best for overall balance, but I still come back to the same basic range in IPCs. I used to play this map with sz16 closed to surface ships, but now I don't play that way anymore. I don't use either of the optional rules these days. Sz 16 closed is just kind of boring, and I'm just not a huge fan of escorts/intercept the way 1942.2 has them formulated, since I find they just neutralize bombing all together with the people in my playgroup (people hate risking fighters on both SBR attack and defense, has been my experience) so I basically ditched both those, and stick to the vanilla ruleset now. I'm not a big fan of low luck either, unless someone really twists my arm off about it, so there's that too haha. All with a grain of salt basically.

Going up to 12 ipcs, eg 2 submarines for UK and things get a lot more distorted. I think the board starts to tip in the Allies favor. Not so much for the direct line on Moscow (since that's kind of a foregone conclusion if Axis are committed), but the double sub bid does make it very hard for the Axis to overcome the Allies on the water, which is critical for the deep endgame, post center collapse.

I'd say somewhere between 8 and 11 ipcs is optimal, if you're not going to restrict the bid. High enough that you can purchase 2 hitpoints, but still low enough that you can't spam 4. If you want to go higher or lower, that's cool, but its more an indication of a disparity in player skill then I think. Between two people who know what they're doing you shouldn't have to go higher than 12 ipcs, or lower than 6.

10 ipcs is probably the sweet spot for expert play, where both sides still have a challenge, but the Allied underdog doesn't get so much of a boost that the Axis are all bitter about it haha. That's like a sub and an artillery piece. Or perhaps 2 inf and an artillery piece, or even a fighter, which can make a big difference.

My fav is the Russian bomber though. The big Red Bomber really gives the Soviets a leg up. Most players I've gamed seem to enjoy the Bomber once they start flying it around. Even if they wouldn't spend their whole bid on a single unit if given the option, it seems to do the trick in terms of balance, and the sense of balance in the mind of the player, which is what the bid process is really all about anyway. I like it because it's a high value unit, and so players are less likely to just throw it away in the first round, you know to gain some slight edge in an opening engagement. So it has a way of paying for itself over time. Each round its used in combat, that Allied player thinks to themselves, "Damn, good thing we got that Russian bomber in the back pocket!" hehe

And then of course, if you feel that a bid is still necessary beyond that, there's nothing to stop you. Russian bomber +3 ipcs, or 4 of 5 etc. I think it should have been part of original set up, but alas, the Russians are always nerfed  grin

Some people add an American destroyer, and then bid from there in a similar fashion. But I like the Red bomber best.


« Last Edit: August 05, 2015, 10:20:38 pm by Black_Elk » Logged
Black_Elk
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« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2015, 04:46:08 pm »
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Ps. I usually put the bomber at Moscow, but you could also leave other options open. This creates some dynamism to the R1 bid play, since you could put it in Karelia and bomb Berlin, or put it in Buryatia and hit sz 61, then land in more optimal positions.

These are both gambler's openings, but can be pretty decisive when they work. If your goal is to seize the initiative through the bid process, then the ability to mess with the G1 purchase is kind of hard to top. Or the chance to take the pressure off UK in the Pacific by handling that second Japanese transport right in the opening salvo. Sure either play might backfire, but if you're playing the odds, at least the odds are in your favor to open in a brazen way, most of the time at any rate. I think its actually a pretty potent bid. Even if you don't do anything with it except ice your normal R1 combats.

That's 4 extra pips on attack for the Soviets, every round that the bomber survives. 1 defensive pip and 1 hit point, plus all that mobility. The option to launch 3 air attacks in a single round is major as well. But basically I like it more for the entertainment value.

A big red bomber so the Allies have more ways to shape the game at the outset, which is why I like it.

Gives the Russians something other than a large stack of hitpoints to play around with. And its also a bit harder to use for the really large naval TUV trades in the first round (at least not without risk to the pride of the red airforce). It doesn't totally hamstring the Axis openers in the first round, the way a solid bid to UK for the same amount might. So yeah, I still like the bomber for fun in the long run.
 grin
« Last Edit: August 06, 2015, 04:48:58 pm by Black_Elk » Logged
Black_Elk
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« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2015, 07:29:52 pm »
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Pps. Also I'm not a huge LL player, but I find that the bomber bid works pretty well under low luck conditions. It gives the Soviets several new attack options.

They can strafe Ukraine for 4 hits in the opening Salvo if going all in. Conserving more fodder with a single pass. And knocking G down to just the tank and fighter.

Or you can guarantee the Baltic states trade, ensuring that the German tank dies trading TUV at advantage.

Or hit sz5, without having to use the Moscow fighter. With this last you got a 50/50 chance that your Yak comes out clean. But even if it dies, you're still in a stronger position than OOB. Germany is down a cruiser and transport, and you're down a fighter. But you can still run 2 air attacks on R2, and the bomber gets you an extra pip on attack. You lose 3 defensive pips (for not having a second fighter) but gain +2 mobility. So on the whole, even if the Karelia fighter goes down attacking sz5, and you're left with just 1 fighter and 1 bomber, at least you're still in a strong position compared to the OOB 2 fighters, and can still play the trading game on the eastern front.
 grin

Or you can bring the extra heat on Belo to clear it with less units comitted, so you can stack W. Russia that much deeper.

And of course, then fly that extra defensive pip much farther afield than your fighters could go, to support the Western Allies in their openings. So it definitely has its uses.

Again in LL, I don't think most players, if left to their own devices would really consider a Russian bomber feesible. A fighter would be more likely, or extra ground for the extra hit points in the opening fight with G, and defense power for the aftermath. But once the bomber is in play, I find that players enjoy it. The extra attack pips at 4 really help in the trading game as time goes on, so it pays for itself in combat. But more over time, rather than all at once, from the begining. Which is part of the charm of it.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2015, 07:56:30 pm by Black_Elk » Logged
calvinhobbesliker
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« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2015, 08:52:46 pm »
+1

Yeah, the Russian bomber is great. I was mainly asking because of the upcoming tournament where we'll be using the usual bid rules (auction to play the Allies, place your money wherever you want with restrictions). In that case, perhaps an inf in Egypt and an SS in the Med or Indian Ocean?
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DarthMaximus
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« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2015, 11:45:22 am »
+1

Yeah, I'm curious as to where the bids will come in as well.  I also want to see the progression for say a bunch of rd 1 games to what the semi-finals and finals may look like.

I'm guessing bids will be between 6-12 for most games but that is only a guess.  Just start high and work your way down.   smiley

For the tourney and for clarification there is no limit on number of units to a territory for the bid, just that you have to place Russian with Russia, UK with UK, US with US.  You can of course spread the bid around, 1 inf here - 1 inf there - etc. but it is not forbidden to place say 2-3 inf in Cauc or 2 inf in Egy, or 1 inf, 1 rt to Kar.

Unless I put a restriction in the rules I posted.  I'll have to double check now.   grin
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DarthMaximus
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« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2015, 11:49:40 am »
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We are doing Full Placement bids, which was my intention. 
So you can put multiple units into a territory as long as the units put in belong to that nation.  NO Russian Units to Egy, BUT 2 Russian units to Kar is okay.

You will be bidding for the Allies.
Full placement bids.  Standard bid rules apply (can only place bid in spots or sea zones where you already have units of that nation, example - you can't place Russian units in US, or UK units in Russia, etc.)
You will bid in IPC, but you can spend the bid on units once bidding is completed and you can split your bid however you see fit - example 3 ipc to Russia and 3 to UK or just all 6 to Russia, etc.
Bidding will be done in an Auction Style via PM between the players.
Once brackets are assigned I will do a random roll for each round to see which player will start the bidding (either top player on bracket or bottom).  The players will then bid down until one player concedes the sides.

Example
Player 1 - I'll play the Allies with 12
Player 2 - I'll play the Allies with 10
Player 1 - I'll play the Allies with 7
Player 2 - You win, you can take the Allies with 7

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Black_Elk
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« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2015, 06:15:03 pm »
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Interesting, most people I've played with in the past restricted the bid to a single unit per territory or sz.

Allowing the placement of multiple units in a territory makes bidding for extra mobility rather pointless. No need to consider tanks, when 2 infantry units will do you more good on attack, provided you can put them both in the same territory.

In this case, I would suggest maximizing your fodder at the front lines, where the opening battles are narrow OOB. Ukraine would be a good example. If you can place 2 infantry in Caucasus instead of just 1, you can tilt that battle quite a bit, and reduce the armor commitment necessary to kill the German fighter.

I haven't crunched the numbers to see what you'd need, but under these bid conditions it may be possible to actually hold Karelia through G1?

Basically you could look at any territory where the hitpoints are usually very low, and see what happens when you place  2, 3 or even 4 extra hit points in that territory on the bid, instead of the usual 1 hp.

It's possible for example to stack Egypt deep enough that a round 1 factory purchase there is viable. 3 to 4 infantry in a single space can be quite effective. Or who knows, maybe do something crazy with a bunch of infantry in Burma or Bury or some place like that?

I'd think putting them at the Suez Canal or on the Eastern Front would be the most potent.

« Last Edit: August 07, 2015, 10:35:09 pm by Black_Elk » Logged
MarineIguana
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« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2015, 09:21:50 am »
+1

The territory structure around Karelia makes stacking it unrewarding for Russia. Germany can project force very easily from bordering infantry, all fighters and all tanks.

I find that placing multiple units in the same territory distorts initial starting conditions.

One example is ukraine, where I would bid.
1. Just drop 3 infantry in cauc
2. attack ukraine with 6 inf, 1 art, 3 tanks, 2 fig and everything else to Wrussia.
3. move the AA to ukraine

Now Germany has to initiate expensive trading of ukraine (expected that 2 inf, 1 art, 3 tanks, 1 aa remain in ukraine R1). Germany needs to commit at least 7 inf, 2 tanks to even get a positive TUV counter. The result is that Russia deadzones Karelia R1, and Germany is unable to stack Karelia for many rounds because the infantry east of Germany were largely used to counter attack ukraine. Russia can use Cauc placed units to trade back Ukraine R2, while maintaining a deadzone of Karelia from WRussia.
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Black_Elk
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« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2015, 06:13:01 pm »
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Yeah, poor Leningrad. Always such a bust  grin

I like when the bid is more limited myself. Like 12 for a Russian bomber, or 10 for a third Russian fighter things of that sort. But full placement might be fun as well, perhaps a lower bid is in order? Playing the numbers game infantry hit points would do you more good conservatively (like they always do) when you can put them together. To make the most of the bid conditions you'd want to magnify them in one spot I'd think. So then its like, how many hitpoints do you want to give your opponent on any one front from the outset? 6 ipcs or more for 2 hp? Up to 9 ipcs for 3 hps, up to 12 ipcs for 4 hps.

2-4 Russian hp in Caucasus?
2-4 British hp on the Suez canal?
2-4 British hp in Persia?
2-4 British hp in Burma?
2-4 US hp in Szech?





« Last Edit: August 08, 2015, 06:16:38 pm by Black_Elk » Logged
Cow
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« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2015, 09:04:39 pm »
+1

3 arty is ideal for russia, crush the germans and have fun.
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Black_Elk
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« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2015, 09:36:47 pm »
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Yeah. 3 artillery can be pretty deadly.
 grin

Perhaps 1 to Ukraine to kill the 6th German fighter and the other 2 to West Russia, so the stack there can lock down the Karelia exchange no problem.

I think its a bit more demoralizing to face down 3 artillery as G than it would be to face down a single Russian air unit. As Allies with 3 art you'd probably be feeling pretty good about things on R2.

Max artillery nets you the most total attack power for the cheapest overall investment, +3 pips on attack for every 4 ipcs your spend on the bid, with the +1 infantry to boost already in place.

11 ipcs, for 2 artillery and 1 inf is pretty solid as well.
10 ipcs, for 1 artillery and 2 inf, not too shabby.

Though for kicks I think I'd still just take a Red fighter at 10. There's something sweet about having that 3rd air attack each round. I'm happy as Allies, and the Axis player usually doesn't seem to be too terribly put off by it, the way they do when they just get murdered by bid ground. Still leaves open some options for an early Axis drive, but gives the Soviets more confidence to face it down.

9 ipcs probably 3 infantry or 2 artillery (and save the remainder.) Though I'd start to worry about rolling duds in the first round and not really getting a whole lot out of the bid.

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MarineIguana
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« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2015, 11:23:28 pm »
+2

Just drop 4 infantry in ukraine. If the bid is 15, drop 5. If the bid is 30, drop 10. Ukraine is the clear rewarding land territory to place marginal units. It is because:
1. The battle is fairly close
2. The units in that territory are valuable to destroy.
3. The Territory structure doesn't favor the opponent significantly. As a contrast, Manchuria and Karelia are really unfavorable.

Russia starts with plenty of offense. Without any bid, Russia can just about attack any 2 territories and destroy all opposing units in 2 rounds of rolls. The benefit of additional offense seems small, unless Russia really wants to attack 3 territories. If you run the calculations, attacking 3 territories is less profitable, unless you truly get a huge 15+ ipc bid dedicated to russia. Russia simple starts with enough offense to efficiently destroy 2 territories of units. Spreading units to a 3rd makes each individual territory less profitable, such that the net is less profitable.

Just like every preceding axis and allies game, infantry are overpowered. If you want to maximize the likelihood to win, just buy and utilize the overpowered units, and avoid the underpowered ones.
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Cow
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« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2015, 01:09:16 am »
+1

11 bid i would just get 1 inf for egypt. 2 arty.
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