Subs and Planes. Subs absorb losses as fodder. Its the best solution to keep UK from building anything and to keep USA from landing troops
Taking Down Fortress Europe
-
When playing as the allies one strategy I find very difficult to counter is when Germany just focuses on building up a ton of infantry starting on the first round (and maybe an artillery here and there).
This is generally how I play (keep in mind I’m no expert. I’ve played several games over-the-board for years but don’t really care for playing on the computer):
USSR: Almost all infantry. I just try to hold Moscow from Germany and Japan for as long as possible.
UK: First couple of turns I buy 2 fighters to help Russia, the rest goes towards troops in India. Hold India as long as possible then evac to Russia before it falls. Consolidate navy and hopefully around turn 4 start landing some troops somewhere in Europe.
USA: Build bombers and transports. Bring navy to Atlantic. Land some troops into Africa starting turn 2 and continue funneling troops in to push toward Europe and keep Japan and Germany out of Africa. Build up bombers to pressure Germany starting turn 1.
This seems to work really well for me, except if if Germany just spams infantry. In most games against my friends Russia will fall about the same time as Germany, but they usually build mixed forces (tanks, artillery, fighters, etc). I tried play testing vs. myself though and it seems that if Germany builds up a ton of infantry that it can hold Berlin down buy long enough for Russia to fall and then things look pretty grim for the allies.
Any thoughts on how to deal with this?
-
Let your German’s player play this strategy a lot of time then he will get bored and try to be imaginative.
Need patience. :-D -
Losing a bunch of games so that the other player grows bored of using the same strategy and does something different isn’t exactly what I had in mind :-P
-
The fortress europe strategy works because it is the optimal german strategy for axis to win. Germany retains territory and accepts allied pressure. Japan accumulates units and eventually walks from persia->kaz->cauc->moscow.
The fundamental reason is that infantry are an overpowered unit. 3 cost provides 1att/2def/1mov/1hit. I know it’s a rough measure, but if you sum these stats (5)/3 cost, you’ll see it compares favorably to every other land unit. Note, I’m aware that this is a simplistic measure (e.g. hit points are actually more valuable than att/def/mov); however, the experience from top players is similar. Infantry are the staple of army compositions because they are the all around best unit. It’s been that case through just about every axis and allies iteration. This is speaking from playing something like 800 games of A&A over the past 3 years.
The optimal way for Allies to play is to keep Russia strong.
- UK and US should seek to start landings on germany starting round 4.
- Russia should exchange territories efficiently. E.g. attacking with 1 inf/2fig instead of 2 inf/1fig. seek opportunities to attack and stack that territory to kill the enemy units and deny the enemy income from that territory.
- UK should seek to preserve india. 3 inf/2fig buys maximize india’s defense.
-
This is optimal purchasing from G, for all the reasons Marineiguana outlined, so it’s fairly hard to counter. Basically if G is just posting up infantry walls every round from the first, it’s going to be very difficult to grab a foothold in Western Europe, as you usually just get ejected from France anyway, even if you manage to snatch it.
My approach would be to play the long game, try to destroy the IJN and focus on maintaining total Naval superiority in the endgame. When G spams all infantry in the early rounds, this a clear signal that the game will be a grind no matter what you do as Allies, so I’d start setting up for the deep endgame at the outset.
The distribution of ipcs on the map is such that, even if Axis control the center, there is a good chance Allies will still prevail, if Axis can’t put ships in the water. The distance overland into Africa from the Center is just too far to hold the swing continent over time, if Allies control all the key drop zones with naval/air. Without a strong Japanese Navy, there just isn’t a whole lot Axis can do to maintain economic parity after the Center crush. A patient or just stubborn Allied player, can often rebound after Moscow collapse, given a few rounds, provided Axis don’t take it with a tank wall fully intact. So the trick is to hold the center long enough to make it a really ugly battle and push the Axis out a round from using the Russian purse to any great effect. If you cinch up Africa early and put Japan onto the defensive instead of Japan swinging around the globe to the med, or launching their entire airforce to Europe (which is what invariably happens if you do nothing about Japan early on) then Allies can prevail in the deep endgame, it just takes a very long time.
As always, sz16 open or closed can make a big difference, if closed then G has basically no late game naval build option, which means it’s entirely up to the IJN on the water. And USA can match them fairly well. Don’t overlook bomber armadas as a good option for USA. Not to strat bomb, but as a fleet hunter, to ensure that any Axis fleet that gets too close to the Center will get smoked. You can station it on Moscow or Caucasus and then bounce somewhere safer, when the Germans start pressing in. I wouldn’t call this a strategy that requires a specific set of moves or opening purchases per se, but just recognizing that control of the Center and Berlin is not a “for sure” Axis victory. The production/ipc spread just isn’t large enough for Axis to fully dominate the globe from Eurasia, at least, not if they don’t have a fleet that can launch amphibious assaults.
If you play with a bid consider using it to secure Suez right away for UK, (an extra British sub works well for this) and then never let the IJN get into a position where it can enter the Med. Use USA to pressure Japan. Its not a quick win by any stretch, but I’d say its probably the best way to deal with the hordes of German infantry, spam strat by Axis.
Just remember the main thing you have going for you as Allies, when G spams infantry, Axis will be slower out the gate. So don’t play into their hands, take the initiative and start moving out early. If drops on Europe are out and Northern stacks into baltic states are pointless (on account of G inf push) then go for the periphery. It’s debatable how much pressure you can really put on Japan itself, but doing nothing to keep them preoccupied is the deathnail under this set up, since G will be counting on J to pick up the slack while they dig in to make Fortress Europa impenetrable.
Best of luck!
-
I’ve thought about a Japan push, even buying a carrier and fighter gives Japan a nice target to take out. I’m not willing to think that the game is totally skewed towards the Axis however, other than one roll of the dice has resulted in total destruction for Britain. I hit the BB, Car, 2 Fig with 2 Fig, 2 Cru, 1 sub and 1 car and lost everything 8 out of 9 times. I bought a carrier and fighter which I used once I had to withdraw from the bad rolls. The next roll took everything I had out with a single hit in return. It’s frustrating to throw 8 3’s and 3 4’s and have it result in zero losses.
The Allies simply seem unable to take chances because when the rolls go badly, the game is pretty much done…
-
Thanks for the replies guys. I especially appreciate the detailed response Black_Elk.
I recently played a game with a friend and I decided to try something different. I decided to pressure Japan early on. I figured if I could grab those high value islands in the Pacific (the ones worth 3-4 ipcs) early on that would compensate for losing Russia later in the game, plus as you mentioned having naval dominance should really help in the endgame. I threw the UK navy at the Japanese fleet in the Indian Ocean turn one. Then with the US I built (if I remember correctly) 2 subs, 2 destroyers and an aircraft carrier. I sent the entire US fleet into the pacific to grab those islands as soon as I could.
The plan worked pretty well. Germany eventually took Russia, but at that point the 8 extra ipcs didn’t really boost them much. Even though I didn’t take mainland Japan they were pretty much rendered inert, they had no navy, no economy. I liberated India and started funneling American troops into Asia. It basically came down to a supped-up United States and UK vs Germany. Eventually I pushed back the Germans and took back the Caucasus. With Russia on the verge of liberation my opponent finally decided that he had enough and resigned.
-
The Lone Deranger you are playing the game perfectly on paper. In you games where you went all out against Germany may I ask if you got an infantry bid in Egypt by any chance? Also how were you bombing runs doing because that is crucial in knocking down Germany’s infantry forces. The key for the allies in a KGF is getting your allied shucks to land in Norway. To do this you have to liberate Leningrad. Also how long did it take you to get the money islands as US? In my games against myself Japan was able to stall America for too long for it to be worth it going all out pacific.
-
In the game vs Germany I didn’t have an infantry bid (to be honest I’m not even sure how bids work). I like to move one of the Russian fighters there on the first turn to protect it though. I like to use the British one there to attack the Japanese ships in the Indian ocean if I’m trying to kill Japan. Also, keep in mind that some of our plays may not be optimal as I don’t play online and I’m new to these forums. Most of what I’ve learned is from just playing with friends over-the-board at the local game store, but occasionally I do like to play vs myself or the computer AI with that TripleA program. With the US I try to build up a good amount of bombers early on to hit Germany’s economy (seems this is the only way that America can really help in Europe early on). I try to maintain about 5-6 of them in the UK for bombing runs, sometimes though I only end up with 3-4 if the AA guns start knocking them out.
In the game where I went after Japan my opponent maintained a navy in the Sea of Japan, but mainly built transports and troops to move into Russia and India. After a few turns he had purchased a factory. This is the first time I’ve tried to take out Japan first instead of Germany. I’ve play tested a few games with myself since then and it does seem that Japan can make things a bit more difficult if they focus everything on a navy. I’ve found spamming submarines can be the naval equivalent of spamming infantry on land.
My main reason for posting here is to try to find out how other players play and what some of the accepted opening strategies are and how I might improve on my own discoveries.
-
If trying to play it out no bid, I like the Russian fighter to Egypt. Sure its out of position, but if you can put the early squeeze on Africa that makes a big difference.
Depending on where you are trying to focus, you might try not attacking sz37. Perhaps instead play more on the India/Africa bounce, by building a tank in Caucasus with the Russians in the opening round. Or a few tanks if you feel really bold.
With UK build 3 tanks in India, and 1 inf 1 fighter in UK, sending the bomber to Caucasus the UK fighters to W. Russia, then send the Indian and Australia fleet to sz30 with both fighters for max defense. Turtle the inf back to India (from persia and Burma) for a 5 stack to guard your tanks as fodder.
You can fly the US fighter down to India as well for extra coverage. Or send a Russian tank if necessary.
Basically pull off Egypt for a round and position your forces to retake it the following round and destroy German units in the process. Early Egypt is a trap for G. Early India is a trap too, and Japan will likely take his transport and his destroyer and bounce back to safe waters to set up with it. If Japan puts the rush on India then your newly purchased tanks can escape in one move to Caucasus or Transjordan… but if he does something else and doesn’t try to pressure India immediately, then you just continue to build up a tank wall here. I like Armor for an Africa focused game because you can jet towards the canal or the eastern front to tango with Germany in fairly short order. Its all just a question of when to tank the tank wall on the move, and how early.
For the UK buy some people like the standard buy 2 fighters in England, 2 artillery and 1 inf in India, rinse repeat. Launch 2 fighters a round to Eastern Front, and stack India with ground (flying in fighter coverage later) with the aim to hold India as a wedge.
But I also like a different buy from UK that calls for 1 fighter, 1 infantry in England, 3 tanks in India!
Or even 1 bomber in England, 3 tanks in India save 1 ipc.
Then launch 1 fighter or 1 bomber a round from UK to the Eastern front. Race the transports back to the United Kingdom to set up on Africa/Europe. I think its a more intense game and fun to have the armor to the Eastern front and trade land with Germany, once India is too difficult to hold. Depending on how hard the Japanese player presses you can usually get between 6 and 9 tanks into Eurasia, without even having to buy transports. By the time your Indian ocean transports return to England the 1 inf unit you’ve been buying each round will add up to enough that you can start dropping on Europe with a nice little infantry buffer to make a bold play in the 5th round. This is usually right around the time when you have to bounce out of India and position your tank wall on German for the final assault KGF.
There are different ways to play it, but that one is rather enjoyable I find. I think you still have option here by retaining the full fleet in sz30, to either keep the US pacific fleet active or to transfer the main forces for a quick rush into Africa torch. Basically first 3 rounds are about sweeping the German naval forces from the Med, with your air, and then pinning the land forces from two directions. Japan may go a little monster with their extra transport, but UK will be in a stronger position on income over the long term once they get the European money from the North and lock baltic.
Worth giving a shot if you haven’t played a center armor game with Allies in a while. The cost at 6 is rough compared to Classic, but they can still be very effective at maxing the production advantage. Moscow is a good place to drop 2 armor a round, since you get the bonus on reach they become immediately effective on the front. If you do it a few rounds in a row, soon you’ve got a good 6 or 7 armor to give the Ruskies stronger forward attack options. Artillery and inf is best after you hit your high water mark, but until then the armor can be cool to get the extra teeth and keep the Axis from pushing forward too quickly. Kind of bait play really, but the armor adds up once you can stack it in groups of a half a dozen or more.
When you play this way, I like to have like little a mental note say to myself, ok every Allied nation will buy a tank every round and position them towards the center as quickly as possible, but without putting them at risk. Just trying to keep tank stacks alive and floating around near the middle of the board as a deterrent. Magnifying the power of the unit by just dropping a ton of them haha!
You can do this with fighters as well, or bombers, or alternating, depending on how you like to play, but early Armor can be fun, and then you let the air catch up a few rounds after.
Plus you get the satisfaction of epic tank battles in the endgame :-D
-
Problem with buying tanks in India is that they are cost inefficient. Japan makes it to where those tanks can’t do anything vs him, and when you want to retreat India you have to be able to protect the infantry retreating as well, so having more 1 move units is just as good as the 2 move units there. Building one tank can be needed sometimes if you don’t have that tank from Egypt get to India because you need the ability to have a blitzing unit to blitz in and out of Burma.
-
I’ve seen it work and be enjoyable in the endgame, but it’s like anything, you get diced in west Russia or fail to stafe Ukraine then you definitely don’t think about buying armor. But I enjoy the movement advantage having that extra pip on D since you’re restricted to just the 3 unit drop anyway, and the movement advantage to race the tank stack out of India when the time comes to draw the fighters off can be a lot of fun to mess with G after the pull out. Most times I see 2 art 1 inf 2 fighters from UK, with the fighters in England flying over. But the tank wall can be fun too. Sure it’s putting more on the line, but you can wall up in Persia with Tanks just like the inf or art, and then bounce the 2 moves the following round. A lot still comes down to Ruskies and USA. Though I know what you mean, I’ve seen the tank wall backfire as well. It’s a gambit play for sure.
Trying to pull anything together without a bid on this board is going to be pretty tough though, and kind of does call for a risk or two taken early on. Axis just have so much going for them right away. For UK those buys seem workable though. By the beginning of the third round, in addition to whatever starting forces survive, you can either have 6 tanks and 2 fighters in Eurasia (with 6 ipcs saved or spend on reserve inf), or else you could have 4 fighters 4 art 2 inf (with no cash or England reserve inf). Either approach will still allow you to max your production and attack power out of India, with air on the prowl around the center. I think it depends a lot on what you’d like to do with USA, and how quickly you can expect US forces to be active on Europe, or whether you want to use them to try and stall Japan early and then redirect.
Either way its going to be kind of dicey grind for Allies going at it no bid style, like deranger mentioned trying earlier. That’s what had me thinking an armor rush might be fun for him. Since when the attacks come, there is a chance to stand up the Japanese with those extra 3s, or use them in wedging the center to help Russia keep G off Caucasus for another round or two. In a tight game those 3s can be lifesaving haha.
-
Thanks again Black Elk for the detailed explaination. That strategy with the armor sounds like a lot of fun! It’s something different which is nice, and I could see it being an effective counter to the slow moving infantry if that is all Germany decides to purchase. I’m definitely going to give it a whirl in my next game. I especially find the early Russian tank idea interesting.
-
Anytime man, it’s a fun board. For a casual dice game, if you’re not trying to bid it out, Allies can still come out with the edge, but takes more energy and greater risks. I’ve probably seen a good half dozen openers I like with the Russians.
From a purchasing strategy standpoint I think you’re better off producing some combination of 7 or 6 units/hitpoints, and taking the advantage on more counter attack options from your units, as opposed to the Classic 8 inf units/hitpoints for your starting 24ipcs. The Russian endgame is always about stacking infantry. But unlike in earlier boards, the Russian position is not as strong. Germany has teeth and Karelia is pretty much hopeless for an opener. I find if you don’t give Russians something to work with on offense you just get squeezed out of the center too quickly.
Two schools, one says destroy max german units in the first round for the minimum investment, buy max inf for the duration and count on UK/US to handle the entire offensive threat to G.
Other says conserve infantry in the opener, risk the bare minimum in battle round 1, and imstead try to bait G, by pulling their ground forward into favorable counter attack trades during the second round.
Some things I’ve seen include full W. Russia stack 4 tanks and all the goods, bait G into Caucasus at the cost of giving them the cash, at the cost of 1 inf destroyed. With UK retaking or else, Russia in round 2 with aims to hold thereafter.
Ukraine attack. Some feel it is critical to take the territory to destroy the 6th German fighter right away and avoid the land attack on Caucasus. Others prefer to strafe off the German ground and retreat their armor if possible. Most just go 3 tanks to ice it. But I’ve seen arguments for just taking 2 and putting 2 tanks into W. Russia instead of 1. It’s a tough call. Problem with W. Russia attack is no control over how many hits G will put up.
Still others like a Belo Blast in combination with W. Russia, rather than Ukraine.
Or the Baltic gambit with 1 inf 1 art 1 fighter vs the german inf and tank. Hoping for a lucky sweep.
Some options that are interesting for purchase at seven units/hitpoints are…
4 inf 3 art
6 inf 1 tankAt six units/hitpoints…
2 inf 3 art 1 tank
4 inf 2 tanks
6 artilleryAt 5 units/hitpoints (dangerously low for controlling the center against full Axis press, but still)…
2 inf 3 tanks
3 artillery 2 tanksFor me the 7 unit buys are optimal, but if you go any lower it should be to try something high risk with a strong payoff. And then after you gamble big, you walk out of the casino and max produce infantry and artillery from then on out ;)
Whatever you buy, it’s helpful to have the heavy hitters coming out of Moscow, since you may have to trade in Caucasus. I think if you’re not going to max buy 8 infantry in round 1, then it’s important to conserve your starting infantry in opening attacks. The hits you sustain in W. Russia can determine so much of what Allies can do. If the Russians get in clean you just have a lot more options with UK. If you get hammered by Germany in W. Russia, it’s immediately rescue Russia mode for UK/US.
Suggested Topics
