All out Defense

Well, this of course does not count the potential benefit of being able to use those planes elsewhere.

I can’t imagine the allies loosing in Moscow with 12 allied FTR  :-o
Usually UK5 I calculate how many FTR are needed in Moscow to hold it but add a few more for extra certainty. Rarely Moscow needs >8 allied planes, but when Germany is really throwing everything at Moscow, including the kitchen sink I once calculated Moscow needs 12 allied FTR to survive indeed -is that a coincidence  :-)?

But if the USA is doing it’s ‘JF’-tango in the Pacific this changes of course. Germany can throw that much more at Russia without a serious invasion threat.

Anyway, exactly the reason why -usually- I don’t scramble #110 with he UK during the opening battles (assuming Germany overpowers it). Those FTR are about the only forces with wich Gibraltar can be defended early on and that is SO crucial.

USSR only comes with 2 AAA in Leningrad… and 2 AAA in Moscow… = 4 AAA  … ( i know you said “assuming”) … but thought thought i’d point this out.
Do not think USSR is going to be building  AAA …do you ?

Here is where a J2 DOW… versus a J4 DOW is important.

A J2 DOW… means starting TURN 2 :

1. US gets $20 a turn more
2. Its minor IC are major ICs
3. It can move… ie- reach Gib  on US2… secure it! UK can land FTR… to secure it beyond reach of Italy .

US does not have to invade Europe in force  ( except secure Gib) on US2/3/4 … BUT… it could:
Build up massively in Atlantic… starting US2…  by US4… it will have enough to make Germany think twice regarding whether to spend IPC buying SB that can give the crucial final push to the offensive force it has there… and may rather start buying Inf in Paris+Germ+W.Germ  or regular planes ( non-SB) for defense…  This might mean the difference between victory and defeat in the crucial battle of Moscow on G6

@MeinHerr:

USSR only comes with 2 AAA in Leningrad… and 2 AAA in Moscow… = 4 AAA  … ( i know you said “assuming”) … but thought thought i’d point this out.
Do not think USSR is going to be building  AAA …do you ?

I’m pretty sure he’s assuming that the Siberians got to Moscow in time for the big rumpus.

Im not exactly sure what you mean MeinHerr.
What you say is very true, but unfortunately the allies have no say in when the USA joins.

Remember UK + ANZAC can DOW Japan early, but this leaves the USA out of the war till US4 no matter what subsequent actions Japan takes. Invading FIC would cancel the +10 (NO) Japan gets from the USA, but still not have it join the war. The rest is carte-blanche for Japan.

Improving the Axis’ situation in Europe is exactly why Japan could consider a J3/J4 instead of a J1/J2, among others to cancel the points you noted and including the fact that Japan typically has an early focus on Russia with a JLaterDOW (decreasing Stalin’s amount of IPCs spent before Moscow can be attacked by Germy).

I think Japan wouldn’t care less (but must keep a few key tactics in mind) if it goes J4 but Germany + Italy have a very comfortable position in Europe. They can either G1/G2/G3/G4, whatever they please.

@ItIsILeClerc:

Im not exactly sure what you mean MeinHerr.
What you say is very true, but unfortunately the allies have no say in when the USA joins.

Remember UK + ANZAC can DOW Japan early, but this leaves the USA out of the war till US4 no matter what subsequent actions Japan takes. Invading FIC would cancel the +10 (NO) Japan gets from the USA, but still not have it join the war. The rest is carte-blanche for Japan.

Improving the Axis’ situation in Europe is exactly why Japan could consider a J3/J4 instead of a J1/J2, among others to cancel the points you noted and including the fact that Japan typically has an early focus on Russia with a JLaterDOW (decreasing Stalin’s amount of IPCs spent before Moscow can be attacked by Germy).

I think Japan wouldn’t care less (but must keep a few key tactics in mind) if it goes J4 but Germany + Italy have a very comfortable position in Europe. They can either G1/G2/G3/G4, whatever they please.

That is why you tempt Japan with the BB    :evil:

At some point , one has to calculate, should Japan take the BB bait… and go J2 DOW on Wallies…  what will be the correct balance of spending and the approach Atlantic vs Pacific for the USA

I have seen many games where US goes all Atlantic… GIF GIF… or all Pacific  KGF…KGF… mantra…

Yes, there has to be spending in Pacific…, but one cannot predict how haywire Japan is planning to go… assume you lose either India on J6-7… or you lose Sydney on J6-7

I do not see them both falling…unless Allies have really bad strategy or and dice rolls.

But the path the Germans take and the implications there are very certain… Moscow … then Egypt…  G6… and G9/10/11

And US has to calculate off the get go on US2… their buy and strategy…because that buy will hit Europe 2 turns later

So, my question is this…. looking at the pros and cons… is it worth sacrificing the UK BB…for a J2 DOW ?!!  Expert comments welcome!

@MeinHerr:

That is why you tempt Japan with the BB    :evil:

At some point , one has to calculate, should Japan take the BB bait… and go J2 DOW on Wallies…  what will be the correct balance of spending and the approach Atlantic vs Pacific for the USA

I have seen many games where US goes all Atlantic… GIF GIF… or all Pacific  KGF…KGF… mantra…

Yes, there has to be spending in Pacific…, but one cannot predict how haywire Japan is planning to go… assume you lose either India on J6-7… or you lose Sydney on J6-7

I do not see them both falling…unless Allies have really bad strategy or and dice rolls.

But the path the Germans take and the implications there are very certain… Moscow … then Egypt…  G6… and G9/10/11

And US has to calculate off the get go on US2… their buy and strategy…because that buy will hit Europe 2 turns later

So, my question is this…. looking at the pros and cons… is it worth sacrificing the UK BB…for a J2 DOW ?!!  Expert comments welcome!

Good god, enough with the rainbow colors.

It’s not bait if there’s nothing to be caught by it. Just because the UK battleship is precious to you doesn’t make it anything more than a speedbump for Japan. If Japan is playing a strategy that calls for waiting for J4, offering a sacrificial UK battleship would not be sufficient tempatation unless the player in question was prone to throwing strategy away on a whim.

You would have to offer nothing less than an opportunity to eliminate India early for me to break from the plan.

Marsh

@Marshmallow:

@MeinHerr:

That is why you tempt Japan with the BB    :evil:

At some point , one has to calculate, should Japan take the BB bait… and go J2 DOW on Wallies…  what will be the correct balance of spending and the approach Atlantic vs Pacific for the USA

I have seen many games where US goes all Atlantic… GIF GIF… or all Pacific  KGF…KGF… mantra…

Yes, there has to be spending in Pacific…, but one cannot predict how haywire Japan is planning to go… assume you lose either India on J6-7… or you lose Sydney on J6-7

I do not see them both falling…unless Allies have really bad strategy or and dice rolls.

But the path the Germans take and the implications there are very certain… Moscow … then Egypt…  G6… and G9/10/11

And US has to calculate off the get go on US2… their buy and strategy…because that buy will hit Europe 2 turns later

So, my question is this…. looking at the pros and cons… is it worth sacrificing the UK BB…for a J2 DOW ?!!  Expert comments welcome!

Good god, enough with the rainbow colors.

It’s not bait if there’s nothing to be caught by it. Just because the UK battleship is precious to you doesn’t make it anything more than a speedbump for Japan. If Japan is playing a strategy that calls for waiting for J4, offering a sacrificial UK battleship would not be sufficient tempatation unless the player in question was prone to throwing strategy away on a whim.

You would have to offer nothing less than an opportunity to eliminate India early for me to break from the plan.

Marsh

That is interesting.  Because there are at least 3 other good players that say that they’d love a good fat yummy BB… and would DOW on J2.

Iam sure different people have different threshold levels before they DOB on J2…

The question for the experts still remains…  should Japan DOW on J2… will the early entry of US into the Atlantic theater influence the Moscow battle enough to prevent its fall… which must be the FIRST priority for WAllies.

Holy colors Batman! Seriously, please stop. It doesn’t make people pay more attention.

But anyways, I love a yummy BB…so I make sure to kill it on J1.

It just looks more colourful!

Do you have colour-blindness?!  Or in love with black?!

Anyways… awaiting answers from folks who do not J1 DOW!

To go along in this intermezzo:

I do J1DOW if I feel like it (also depends a little on what opponent I am dealing with).

Assuming I have set up the stage for a J4DOW: the BB (+ other blockers) is not enough bait to change my plans and DOW the allies sooner.
Main reason is that during a J4DOW the Japanese transports (and some warships if need be) are busy North. ~24 Russian units require their attention. A sudden J2DOW would therefore only deliver the BB (and other ‘blockers’ to the Japanese. Not to mention that the USA would be in the war (and be able to get to the DEI before Japan does). They key for Japan during a J4DOW is actually the use same tactic as the UK does: ‘move [through the UK blockers] in peace’ and have the other side DOW. A UK+ANZAC DOW gets them nothing useful, and the USA will not be dragged into the war. Will even provide its +10IPC trade NO to Japan.

If I was set up for a J3 or a J2 anyway, I’d happily eat that BB for breakfast, ofc.

As far as the OP concerns, this changes nothing for the Russian defense of Moscow other than that its fall is as good as inevitable with the USA being on a rampage in the Pacific, but can be avoided if the USA is heavily present in Europe by US4.

MeinHerr

Obviously much depends on the axis overall strat, and what their end game is. For an all out axis Barbarossa (meaning Germany is locked in, and Italy/Japan will both assist in some way taking down the Russians), it might be best for Japan to be more patient keeping the US at port on the Euro map.

With no J1 attack when Japan does attack would depend on the ships/transports being dangled by UK/Anz, but also on the positioning of the USA as well (considering the German rush to Moscow). I have stated that a J2 attack would be likely if the UK keeps the BB in the danger zone, and Japan was also able to sink other ships like destroyer/transports as well (not just the BB). I have given it more though though, and Japan would need to look at the whole situation (both sides of the map). If that BB was placed at Hong Kong as you have said in other posts, as Japan you have it trapped (Japanese air should be able to kill it J3 if positioned). So if they wait til J3, they probably still get the Brit BB, but you run the risk of the UK/Anz DOW before J3, but does that hurt you……

Explain: Axis have a plan (needs to be flexible). In the original scenario it’s all out def Moscow. Rus1 & 2 the Siberians are heading home (all 6 AA guns def the capital etc…). So Japan should probably start moving into Russian land as the Siberians retreat (taking away income one IPC at a time).

With no J1 attack:
Say on US1 they build on the Pac side and move in force to Hawaii (normal because they get more freedom to move on the Pac side). If you attack J2 in this case it would take the US til turn three to get to Gibraltar in force (able to purchase for E US on US2, and/or move through Panama etc…). The US navy at Hawaii would take another round to get to Europe, so maybe it comes, maybe it stays. If it stays the US has just split its navy in half, which isn’t exactly ideal for them.

Maybe US1 has the west coast fleet coming through the canal, and them building on E US (Hawaii ships come back to W US coast). In this case the US is gearing up to go heavy Europe so axis need to decide to stay with the orig plan (Japan doesn’t attack keeping US locked down), or maybe Japan goes for a Pac win instead.

There are a lot of factors to look at, and the axis will need to be flexible depending on what the allies throw at them. They might have originally planned for the Germans to go G2, and Japan to go J3/4, but things change and a J2 attack might be beneficial if they can set the allies back.

@WILD:

MeinHerr

Obviously much depends on the axis overall strat, and what their end game is. For an all out axis Barbarossa (meaning Germany is locked in, and Italy/Japan will both assist in some way taking down the Russians), it might be best for Japan to be more patient keeping the US at port on the Euro map.

With no J1 attack when Japan does attack would depend on the ships/transports being dangled by UK/Anz, but also on the positioning of the USA as well (considering the German rush to Moscow). I have stated that a J2 attack would be likely if the UK keeps the BB in the danger zone, and Japan was also able to sink other ships like destroyer/transports as well (not just the BB). I have given it more though though, and Japan would need to look at the whole situation (both sides of the map). If that BB was placed at Hong Kong as you have said in other posts, as Japan you have it trapped (Japanese air should be able to kill it J3 if positioned). So if they wait til J3, they probably still get the Brit BB, but you run the risk of the UK/Anz DOW before J3, but does that hurt you……

Explain: Axis have a plan (needs to be flexible). In the original scenario it’s all out def Moscow. Rus1 & 2 the Siberians are heading home (all 6 AA guns def the capital etc…). So Japan should probably start moving into Russian land as the Siberians retreat (taking away income one IPC at a time).

With no J1 attack:
Say on US1 they build on the Pac side and move in force to Hawaii (normal because they get more freedom to move on the Pac side). If you attack J2 in this case it would take the US til turn three to get to Gibraltar in force (able to purchase for E US on US2, and/or move through Panama etc…). The US navy at Hawaii would take another round to get to Europe, so maybe it comes, maybe it stays. If it stays the US has just split its navy in half, which isn’t exactly ideal for them.

Maybe US1 has the west coast fleet coming through the canal, and them building on E US (Hawaii ships come back to W US coast). In this case the US is gearing up to go heavy Europe so axis need to decide to stay with the orig plan (Japan doesn’t attack keeping US locked down), or maybe Japan goes for a Pac win instead.

There are a lot of factors to look at, and the axis will need to be flexible depending on what the allies throw at them. They might have originally planned for the Germans to go G2, and Japan to go J3/4, but things change and a J2 attack might be beneficial if they can set the allies back.

Thank you for your explanation. It was along the lines i was looking for.

Assume there is not J1 DOW on Wallies. And UK India and ANZAC grab 1 DEI island each.
Assume that US builds a Naval base on Panama Canal on US1  … and there are at least 2-3 UBoats in Atlantic…and with the rest buys 2 DD each on Atlantic and Pacific. Keeps 1 Strat Bomber + 1 F in East Coast… and rest on Pac.
Assume Barbarossa is the plan for Axis. No Sealion.
Assume Japan take UK BB…
(yess… 4 Big Assumptions…  :) i know  )

But… if in this scenario…  if J2 DOW happens… and US is keen on preventing fall of Moscow…  and prevent fall of Sydney and Hawaii… 
the the US2  buy for $52 will be  4 Loaded TR in Atlantic…  US2 attack will be to kill UBoats if in striking distance… Non Combat to take Gib…
US3 buy for $72 = 5 loaded TR + troops on west coast (shuttle to Hawaii)… US has 1+4 = 5 Loaded TRs off Gib
US4 buy  = troops only in Atlantic  and 1 CV in Pacific…  US has 10 Loaded TR off Gib…

Methinks that building this pressure on US3 and US4…might thwart a massive G3, G4 buy all geared for Moscow… and give it respite…

Any alternative suggestions on builds? or the approach in general?

Thanks

MH

Okay, I hope I’m not just missing something here, but I’d like to respond about the UK ships moving into Japanese waters.
The way I understand it, while the UK Pacific and Japan are not at war yet, on UK 1 UK moves the BB from SZ 37 to SZ 20, the DD and CA from SZ 39 to SZ 37. Then on UK 2, the BB moves to SZ 6, the DD to SZ 19 and CA to SZ 20. Then on ANZAC 2, ANZAC declares war on Japan so the UK warships in Sea Zones 6 , 19 and 20 effectively “freeze” Japanese transports in these sea zones making them unable to load troops for amphibious assaults. Is this about right?

Okay, typically as Japan, one of my first objectives is to scoop up those rich DEI islands as well as Malaya, Philippines, Hong Kong, effectively almost doubling Japan’s income. On J1, I will purchase 3 transports and NCM my 3 starting transports, filled with men and equipment, to SZ 36. On J2, I will load the 3 new transports during NCM and move them to SZ 36. I may purchase more transports or an IC for Shanghai on J2, not sure (sometimes my J2 purchase can vary, depending on the situation).
My point is, when ANZAC DOWs on A2, most of my Japan transports are in SZ 36 and loaded up, along with the majority of my warships. As such, they would be totally unaffected by the UK ships, with the exception perhaps of any newly purchased transports from J2.
In this case, Japan would be able to easily scoop up the DEI and trash those UK ships on J3 without getting the US into the war yet. Since I would most likely attack the Philippines with transports from SZ 6, the UK BB delaying them would actually be beneficial to me as I would not be dragging the US into the war yet.
Even if the UK decides to leave one of those UK “trapping” ships in SZ 36, my transports are already loaded and can move out of SZ 36 with their combat move to invade the DEI, leaving some warships behind to smash whatever UK ship was left there.
So while this odd DOW situation is a bit of a nasty loophole that could possibly be exploited by UK/ANZAC and may in some cases cause Japan to lose a turn with their transports, I think if you have a decent Japan player then in most cases it can easily be overcome and will mostly be a waste of UK ships. I think there are much better uses for those ships than sacrificing them so deep in enemy waters.

knp, I 100% agree with your analysis/goal of the Japanese planning a J3 attack. This is also exactly the same conclusion I posted a few days ago regarding the Anz declaring war on their turn Anz2, it’s a one trick pony at best. If you manage to pull it off in your group that’s cool, but the same group of players (regardless of experience) aren’t going to let it happen again (transports will be left loaded and protected).

Like I also posted earlier if the UK BB goes up to Hong Kong UK1, it is pretty much trapped so the Japanese might take a pass on it knowing they can still kill it J3 (hoping the UK/Anz starts the war). Good point about not really needing the sz6 transports until J4 to take Philippines (won’t be hitting US on J3 anyway). You could still kill the BB, then load/move in NCM.

@knp7765:

Okay, I hope I’m not just missing something here, but I’d like to respond about the UK ships moving into Japanese waters.
The way I understand it, while the UK Pacific and Japan are not at war yet, on UK 1 UK moves the BB from SZ 37 to SZ 20, the DD and CA from SZ 39 to SZ 37. Then on UK 2, the BB moves to SZ 6, the DD to SZ 19 and CA to SZ 20. Then on ANZAC 2, ANZAC declares war on Japan so the UK warships in Sea Zones 6 , 19 and 20 effectively “freeze” Japanese transports in these sea zones making them unable to load troops for amphibious assaults. Is this about right?

Okay, typically as Japan, one of my first objectives is to scoop up those rich DEI islands as well as Malaya, Philippines, Hong Kong, effectively almost doubling Japan’s income. On J1, I will purchase 3 transports and NCM my 3 starting transports, filled with men and equipment, to SZ 36. On J2, I will load the 3 new transports during NCM and move them to SZ 36. I may purchase more transports or an IC for Shanghai on J2, not sure (sometimes my J2 purchase can vary, depending on the situation).
My point is, when ANZAC DOWs on A2, most of my Japan transports are in SZ 36 and loaded up, along with the majority of my warships. As such, they would be totally unaffected by the UK ships, with the exception perhaps of any newly purchased transports from J2.
In this case, Japan would be able to easily scoop up the DEI and trash those UK ships on J3 without getting the US into the war yet. Since I would most likely attack the Philippines with transports from SZ 6, the UK BB delaying them would actually be beneficial to me as I would not be dragging the US into the war yet.
Even if the UK decides to leave one of those UK “trapping” ships in SZ 36, my transports are already loaded and can move out of SZ 36 with their combat move to invade the DEI, leaving some warships behind to smash whatever UK ship was left there.
So while this odd DOW situation is a bit of a nasty loophole that could possibly be exploited by UK/ANZAC and may in some cases cause Japan to lose a turn with their transports, I think if you have a decent Japan player then in most cases it can easily be overcome and will mostly be a waste of UK ships. I think there are much better uses for those ships than sacrificing them so deep in enemy waters.

Hi Knp…

Not talking about the one-trick pony… or TMG… here.

Everything withdraws away from the Japanese navy.

ANZAC does NOT declare war.

Allies just put BB into SZ 20…  hoping Japan takes it.

My questions was… reg. the hypothetical scenario… where … I was trying to compare the pros- and cons- of sacrificing the BB in this manner.

Yes, its a loss of a 20 IPC piece.

But… will it in any way help in delaying… or thwarting the fall of Moscow… by the fact that:
by US3  ( before the critical G4 buy ) there are 5 Loaded TRs off Gibralter…
and
by US4  ( before the G5 - SB buy against Moscow…) … there will be 10 Loaded TRs off Gib…

[if UK has even 1 TR… they could do the 1-2 US-UK… Denmark-Berlin punch…  or other things to rattle Germany]

SO again….to restate my question…  Since this topic is about an ALL OUT DEFENSE…
Is it worth sacrificing just the BB  to allow US into the war on US?  Will that “save” Moscow at least for one-turn… if not forever…?

Thanks!

@WILD:

knp, I 100% agree with your analysis/goal of the Japanese planning a J3 attack. This is also exactly the same conclusion I posted a few days ago regarding the Anz declaring war on their turn Anz2, it’s a one trick pony at best. If you manage to pull it off in your group that’s cool, but the same group of players (regardless of experience) aren’t going to let it happen again (transports will be left loaded and protected).

Like I also posted earlier if the UK BB goes up to Hong Kong UK1, it is pretty much trapped so the Japanese might take a pass on it knowing they can still kill it J3 (hoping the UK/Anz starts the war). Good point about not really needing the sz6 transports until J4 to take Philippines (won’t be hitting US on J3 anyway). You could still kill the BB, then load/move in NCM.

Hi WB,

Hong Kong has a Naval base… so should Japan not do J2 DOW… ( after UK1 move BB to SZ 20) … , then the BB can …on UK 2,… in peace withdraw to Sumatra Waters… or waters off Burma ( SZ 38) .

It is not quite as “trapped” as you may feel.

Ummm, yea it is trapped.  The Japanese (as knp said) generally move fleet to sz 36 J1/J2 which would include carriers (you’ve heard of them right, planes fly off and sink ships etc……). Japanese bmrs could also be with-in range as well  from Kwangsi. If the Brit BB goes to Hong Kong UK1, Japan can get into position on J2 to kill it anywhere it moves w/o question if it wants to. Even if the Japanese keep their fleet home in sz6, or move it out to the Carolines J1, they can move to sz 36 J2 and trap it.