Subs starting out in a SZ containing a hostile DD

[MrMalachiCrunch]

Say I non-combat move a destroyer into a sea zone containing a stack of hostile subs, but only subs. 

Would the entire stack of subs be forced to attack my destroyer and be pinned there? 

If not all had to attack then could some of the subs not attacking move out of the sea zone to enter into combat in other sea zones or remain not doing any combat and then non-combat moving out of the SZ?

[Bunnies P Wrath]

Insert Quote
Say I non-combat move a destroyer into a sea zone containing a stack of hostile subs, but only subs.

Would the entire stack of subs be forced to attack my destroyer and be pinned there?

If not all had to attack then could some of the subs not attacking move out of the sea zone to enter into combat in other sea zones or remain not doing any combat and then non-combat moving out of the SZ?

On your opponent's combat move phase, your opponent can move all, some, or none of the subs *in that sea zone* away as your opponent desires.  The subs that move away can enter into combat in other combats.

Any subs that remain must fight the destroyer, and none of those subs can move during noncombat movement.  (A unit that fights in combat phase cannot move in noncombat phase whether or not that unit moved in combat move phase.  Unless it's air, that is.)

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One counterintuitive thing is - as far as I can tell, even if the destroyer survives, your opponent can move subs into the destroyer's sea zone on the noncombat move phase.  (Given that such subs did not move in combat movement or fight that turn).

[MrMalachiCrunch]

Yeah I thought that would be too easy.  I see it explained on page 12, I was looking under subs and destroyers.

I can see a subtle effect.  Placing a DD on the stack of subs and also a blocking sub in the Sz next to the stack means the subs can't move past the second blocking DD, they can either retreat, or advance 1 SZ and attack the other blocking DD but could not advance further in non-combat as they all did something during the combat movement phase.  A huge stack of US subs in Sz45 could be prevented from reaching Sz60 during non combat with a hostile DD in Sz45 and a second in Sz51. 

[Bunnies P Wrath]

A huge stack of US subs in Sz45 could be prevented from reaching Sz60 during non combat with a hostile DD in Sz45 and a second in Sz51. 

Overthinking it, maybe, yes?  A stack of US subs in SZ45 can be prevented from reaching SZ60 with a Japanese destroyer in SZ51.  That's all you need.

[MrMalachiCrunch]

I am guilty of over thinking.   I am not guilty of broadcasting the exact scenario and location I am thinking of.  The sea zones mentioned in this fictitious scenario are irrelevant.   Yes, agreed, in that situation, a DD in SZ51 is all you would need to prevent combat from occurring in Sz60 via surface ships located in Sz45.  And as long as I had surface warships in Sz60 no subs could enter Sz60 during non-combat.  If I wanted NO subs to reach an unoccupied Sz60 then I would require another DD in Sz45.  This would only make sense if surface warships in Sz60 could be taken out during combat via air units thus allowing a non-combat move of a stack of subs into Sz60.  But again, this is not where my situation is occurring, thanks for the input, I appreciate it.

[Hobbes]

And as long as I had surface warships in Sz60 no subs could enter Sz60 during non-combat.

A little clarification - subs can enter and end their movement on any SZ (even hostile ones) during non-combat. However, if the SZ contains enemy destroyers it must end its movement there. (pag 21 of the manual)

[MrMalachiCrunch]

Hey Hobbes, you are correct, I didn't word that properly.   A bit of background on the scenario.  The stack of enemy subs is starting off their move with an enemy destroyer present in their SZ,  so they must move away from their SZ and hostile DD during the combat phase.  They need to move 2 SZ to get to where I don't want them to go, but move through one specific SZ (also containing a hostile DD) to get to that SZ.   It would seem there would be no way for any of the subs in that stack to get to the SZ I want to deny them access to if I am willing to use 2 DDs to prevent this from occurring, a traditional blocking DD and a second DD to sit on top of the sub stack to force them to move during combat movement phase.

[MrMalachiCrunch]

I am still not 100% comfortable with my interpretation though.  95% but not 100%

On page 12 of the rule book "Sea Units Starting In Hostile Sea Zones" it goes on to state: "For example, an enemy may have built new sea units in a sea zone where you have surface ships".

I don't like that fact they mention surface ships.  In my scenario, I placed a DD on the stack of Subs during my non-combat move.  Other than that, the wording implies something must occur during combat movement phase, stay and fight, leave and fight, leave and return to fight, or leave and don't fight.  Once they move in this phase, they are done moving not surprisingly.  But to move where I don't want them to go requires moving through a second DD which forces them to stop and fight.

[Krieghund]

On page 12 of the rule book "Sea Units Starting In Hostile Sea Zones" it goes on to state: "For example, an enemy may have built new sea units in a sea zone where you have surface ships".

That sentence is a little off.  It's being changed in the next printing to say "For example, an enemy may have built new surface warships in a sea zone where you have sea units."  That should address your concerns.

[Hobbes]

I am still not 100% comfortable with my interpretation though.  95% but not 100%

On page 12 of the rule book "Sea Units Starting In Hostile Sea Zones" it goes on to state: "For example, an enemy may have built new sea units in a sea zone where you have surface ships".

I don't like that fact they mention surface ships.  In my scenario, I placed a DD on the stack of Subs during my non-combat move.  Other than that, the wording implies something must occur during combat movement phase, stay and fight, leave and fight, leave and return to fight, or leave and don't fight.  Once they move in this phase, they are done moving not surprisingly.  But to move where I don't want them to go requires moving through a second DD which forces them to stop and fight.

Kreighund already explained it, but to me you need to read both paragraphs:

1st paragraph: It clear states ''For example', so other situations may happen
2nd paragraph: 'If you are sharing a SZ with enemy warships (not submarines and/or transports) this situation requires you to do one of the following...' which is what Krieghund mentioned on his explanation.

To me the most confusion comes that it also applies to submarines, regardless of the type of enemy surface ships (i.e. even without an enemy destroyer present the sub will have to attack/submerge)

[MrMalachiCrunch]

Hobbes, I agree 100%.  If the enemy builds a cruiser or carrier, or places one of those units on top of your subs then it should have no affect on the subs.

Krieg, thanks again for the clarification.  Now what about the situation where the surface ship fleet does not contain a destroyer and the hostile fleet contains only subs?  What about a mixed fleet in the presence of a surface fleet containing no DDs, would the mixed fleets submarine portion be forced to react as the other surface combatants would?

Gee, just when you think you know all the angles.... LOL

[Krieghund]

Subs are affected, as it is a hostile sea zone.  Any sea unit, including a sub, that is in a hostile sea zone at the end of the combat movement phase must engage in combat.  Of course, for a sub, if the hostile sea zone doesn't contain a destroyer, it can submerge at the beginning of the first round and avoid combat for all practical purposes.

Just like any other sea unit, a sub that begins its turn in a hostile sea zone must either move away in combat movement or fight.  In a case where there are no enemy destroyers, the sub can remain in the sea zone without actual combat by submerging immediately.  This means that the only practical effect is that the sub may not move in noncombat movement.

[MrMalachiCrunch]

Thanks Krieg, clears it up for me.  I would like to see a rule modification whereby the subs could ignore the surface fleet assuming there was no DD in the case where they start out in a hostile SZ thus allowing them to move during the non-combat movement phase.  Although, that would hurt me in my present situation so just wait until my game is over before changing the world for me..... *wry grin*