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Author Topic: The Bromberg Massacre  (Read 7285 times)
Gargantua
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« on: November 05, 2011, 10:54:54 am »
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Anyone familiar?

In fact... is anyone familiar AT ALL as to why the Germans invaded Poland?  It seems a forgotten secret...

« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 02:36:31 pm by Gargantua » Logged
Fishmoto37
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« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2011, 12:31:24 pm »
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Anyone familiar?

In fact... is anyone familiar AT ALL as to why the Germans invaded Poland?  It seems a forgotten secret...


  Danzig! Also wanted a jumping off point for Barbarossa! With no Polish army in the way they could just shoot right into Russia. Russia took east Poland and then stalin decided to move all his troops from prepared defensive positions in the interior right up to the frontiers. Dumb move!
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Imperious Leader
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« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2011, 01:43:50 pm »
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Hitler wanted the land that was taken by Poland connecting Prussia to Germany. Of course taking all of Poland was a good staging area for a future trip to Moscow.
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Gargantua
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« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2011, 02:36:11 pm »
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQvN2Kp21oA&feature=player_embedded#!

Sorry I should have said BROMBERG massacre.

Interesting...  How many polish generals were put on trial at nuremburg?  Does anyone know?
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Zhukov44
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« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2011, 09:55:52 pm »
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How can this incident have caused the war when it occurred 2 days after the Germans invaded?

Gargantua here's a new avatar for ya  evil
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KurtGodel7
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« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2011, 10:35:01 pm »
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I have not yet studied the Bromberg Massacre. But I would like to contribute the following quote to the discussion. The quote is from John Toland's book Adolf Hitler, which has been endorsed by the New York Times, Chicago Tribune, and other major media outlets.

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[A.I.] Berndt [a German government official] thought the reported number of German nationals killed by Poles too small and simply added a nought. At first Hitler refused to believe such a figure but, when Berndt replied that it may have been somewhat exaggerated but something monstrous must have happened to give rise to such stories, Hitler shouted "They’ll pay for this! Now no one will stop me from teaching these fellows a lesson they’ll never forget! I will not have my Germans butchered like cattle!" At this point the Fuhrer went to the phone and, in Berndt’s presence, ordered Keitel to issue "Directive No. 1 for the Conduct of the War." 
*********

Adolf Hitler, pp 566 - 567

The above quote creates the impression that one of Hitler's motives for invading Poland may have been to prevent additional killings of German nationals. In answer to the obvious question, "Why on Earth would the Polish want to do that?," one needs to look at the false promises and lies the French government had told the Polish government. French politicians had promised Poland that, if Germany invaded, France would launch a general offensive against Germany, and would do so within fifteen days of mobilization. Obviously that never happened, and France's leaders never had the slightest intention of making it happen.
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Herr KaLeun
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« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2011, 01:00:08 am »
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The above quote creates the impression that one of Hitler's motives for invading Poland may have been to prevent additional killings of German nationals.
Additional to what? As Zhukov pointed out, the Bromberg incident occurred on September 3, 1939 and could therefore obviously not have been a motive for the invasion of Poland which had started two days before.

In answer to the obvious question, "Why on Earth would the Polish want to do that?," one needs to look at the false promises and lies the French government had told the Polish government.
While I agree that the French handled most of World War II rather poorly, it seems pretty obvious to me that the Polish would be angry at a nation that had just invaded their country. Also, while historians disagree on what precisely happened at Bromberg, it was not a purposeful slaughter of innocent ethnic Germans by any account.
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Gargantua
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« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2011, 07:13:33 am »
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Well I'll tell you how.

From what I can tell, and have read, the "Danzig" crisis, was in a large part fueled by the attrocities and treatment of the ethnic germans in the region PRIOR to the invasion.

The reality is that the same sentiment that got those people killed 2 days and less after the invasion, was there, amongst the community before hand.  And that there were other killings, and kidnappings going as far back as April 1939.

PERHAPS, if the Germans had invaded 4 days before, maybe those people wouldn't be dead?  This is also a disputed fact.

Unbelievably there isn't much information on the subject of the massacres?  including information on WHY the Germans invaded in the first place?  Mostly what I can find - is coloquial generalizations based on what people heard in their grade 10 history class...  No facts? No quotes? No Journals? No Documents? No Clarity... :S

I mean, the poles knew for some time the war was coming, why?  What was really going on there?  What 'was' the crisis?  Because it surely wasn't Lebenstraum... (not an emergency)

So were there attrocities? what were they? And did the Germans go their to protect thier own people? OR is this all part of another theory?  That they were all false flag attacks?  It would be nice to know the truth is all!
« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 07:15:27 am by Gargantua » Logged
Gargantua
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« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2011, 07:17:34 am »
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it was not a purposeful slaughter of innocent ethnic Germans by any account

People getting shot in a crossfire is not "purposeful"

And no offense - but... going house to house and executing their patrons, is the DELIBERATE slaughter of people.

Tell me if I'm wrong here bro?
« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 09:02:56 am by Gargantua » Logged
KurtGodel7
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« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2011, 07:58:14 am »
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Additional to what? As Zhukov pointed out, the Bromberg incident occurred on September 3, 1939 and could therefore obviously not have been a motive for the invasion of Poland which had started two days before. . . .

While I agree that the French handled most of World War II rather poorly, it seems pretty obvious to me that the Polish would be angry at a nation that had just invaded their country. Also, while historians disagree on what precisely happened at Bromberg, it was not a purposeful slaughter of innocent ethnic Germans by any account.

There are two separate incidents here:

1) The Bromberg Massacre, which as you correctly noted occurred shortly after the German invasion had begun.

2) The killings of German nationals to which the Toland quote refers, which took place before Germany had invaded Poland. If you go back and reread the Toland quote, you will see that Hitler ordered the invasion in response to the report he'd received from Berndt.

If the killings of German nationals had begun before the invasion, it's at least possible that the Bromberg massacre represents the continuation of that pattern after the invasion had started. But I would like to find out more about the nature and motives of the prewar killings and the Bromberg massacre before committing myself to that view.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 08:00:45 am by KurtGodel7 » Logged
Gargantua
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« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2011, 09:07:16 am »
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Quote
The conflict between Germany and Poland, which was supported by Britain and France, over the Danzig territory preceded the outbreak of World War II. Beginning in October 1938, Hitler demanded that the Danzig (of Gdansk) region of Poland be ceded to Germany. This port area had been under Polish administration since the Potsdam agreement. Poland refused to cede Danzig, and in March of 1939, negotiations began between Germany and Poland. On March 30, 1939, both France and Great Britain pledged to defend Poland in the event of a German attack. By April, German troop concentrations on the Polish border began. During the summer months, Hitler made several statements about increasing German intolerance for Polish "atrocities" to German citizens in Danzig. On August 26, 1939, Germany attacked Danzig. On September 1st, Germany attacked Poland itself, and on September 3rd, Great Britain and France declared war on Germany, beginning the Second World War.

As it turns out - and I didn't know,  Danzig was it's own CITY/STATE...  Check it out!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_City_of_Danzig

That explains ALOT of things...  Yet another condition, of the treaty of versailles!   Definetely a cool read.
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KurtGodel7
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« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2011, 09:26:36 am »
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Herr KaLeun correctly pointed out that France handled most of WWII poorly. I'd like to expand on that point.

During the mid-'30s, leaders from France and other democracies had attempted to form an alliance with the Soviet Union. The hope was that the democracies and the Soviets would gang up on and invade Nazi Germany. This invasion was expected to be successful, and a number of Eastern European governments adopted pro-Soviet diplomatic stances to be on what was expected to be the winning side.

Democratic leaders showed no hesitation in allying themselves with a Soviet government which had committed tens of millions of murders. (Such as the deliberate starvation of millions Ukrainians in the early '30s.) Apparently there was no objection to placing much of Germany under the rule of the same men responsible for those acts of genocide.

The diplomatic policy of France and other democracies failed to result in the hoped-for Franco-Soviet invasion of Germany. Stalin saw both the democracies and the Nazis as enemies. He wanted a long, bloody war to occur between the two sides--a war which would sap Europe of its will and ability to resist a subsequent Soviet invasion. He therefore adopted a policy of Soviet neutrality towards Germany, while simultaneously encouraging very strong "anti-fascism" among far left groups in Europe. The hope was that this anti-fascism would help lead to war between the democracies and Germany. (It did.)

While France did not succeed in dividing Germany between itself and the Soviet Union, it was successful in getting a defensive alliance with the Soviets (in 1935). The Soviets formed a defensive alliance with Czechoslovakia that same year.

One of Germany's motives for annexing Czechoslovakia in 1938 was to send a message to other Eastern European governments about the wisdom of joining the Franco-Soviet alliance. The plan worked: by late 1940, the diplomatic situation in Eastern Europe had become much more favorable to Germany than it had been just a few years earlier. Another reason for the annexation was that German military planners feared the possibility of Czechoslovakia being used as a jumping off point for a Soviet invasion. (As could have been the case had diplomatic relations between the Soviets and Czechs grown even closer, and had Stalin decided the time had come for his move westward into Europe.)

For a time, the French government was run by the Popular Front political coalition. The Popular Front's three political parties were the French Communist Party, the French Section of the Workers' International, and the Radical Party. Daladier was a member of the Radical Party, and his anti-fascist/pro-war credentials were strong enough that he was selected to serve as Minister of War. Several years later he became prime minister of France.

Daladier believed war with Germany was necessary, and felt France was too weak to win the war on its own. He wanted a strong ally--either the Soviet Union or Britain--at France's side before going to war. His government's lies to Poland in 1939 were a subset of his larger anti-German, pro-war foreign policy. Exactly what Daladier hoped to achieve from this foreign policy was not clear. Had his hopes and dreams come to pass, and had the German Army been crushed by some combination of France, the Soviet Union, and Britain, the Red Army would have been several times stronger than the postwar French Army. The United States government was solidly pro-communist under FDR, and did not become anti-communist until 1948. Daladier had no reason to anticipate these changes in American politics. He had no reason to believe that the Soviet Union would not swallow France after it was done digesting Germany.

Before 1948, Germany represented the only real barrier to Soviet expansion into the heart of Europe. France's leaders did not recognize this in 1919, when they allowed Germany only a token military under the Versailles Treaty. They did not recognize this in the '30s, when they adopted a foreign policy designed to destroy the German state, with no real subsequent plan to prevent Soviet domination of all of Europe. France was saved from communist occupation not by its own politicians, but by political changes in the U.S. In addition, Germany's war against the Soviet Union severely weakened the Red Army, making it easier for the Western democracies to resist a would-be Soviet invasion.
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Gargantua
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« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2011, 02:27:04 pm »
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Quote
"Poland wants war with Germany and Germany will not be able to avoid it even if she wants to." (Polish Marshal Rydz-Smigly as reported in the Daily Mail, August 6th, 1939)[/quote]

The plot THICKENS!
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Gargantua
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« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2011, 02:27:54 pm »
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I have also read somewhere, that the Germans had made repeated complaints to the league of nations about the persecution and attrocities. BUT I haven't been able to find any documentation...
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Herr KaLeun
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« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2011, 02:44:04 pm »
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Quote
it was not a purposeful slaughter of innocent ethnic Germans by any account

People getting shot in a crossfire is not "purposeful"

And no offense - but... going house to house and executing their patrons, is the DELIBERATE slaughter of people.

Tell me if I'm wrong here bro?
You would be right if that would indeed have happened. But the thing is, that there's not a whole lot of agreement about the actual events. I'll quote a little bit from the Wikipedia article that I linked to earlier:

Quote
The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau investigation in 1939–1940 concluded that the events were a result of panic and confusion among the Polish troops.[14] The Wehrmacht investigation included the interrogation of captive Polish soldiers, ethnic Germans from Bydgoszcz and surrounding villages, and Polish civilians. The bodies of the victims were exhumed and the cause of death and the possible involvement of military rifles was assessed.[15] According to this investigation, a squad of Polish soldiers was sent in to clarify the situation after hearing shots being fired within the city.[citation needed] Uniformed Polish soldiers, assisted by the local Polish population, were led to houses from which shots were allegedly heard.[citation needed] In households where weapons were found, people were subject to summary executions.
Now that is a contemporary account by the Germans, so not one that would likely depict whatever the Poles did a favorable light. And even they acknowledge that "panic and confusion among the Polish troops" was a major factor, and that the action was apparently a response to shots being fired. Granted, the Bromberg killings were possibly in part an unwarranted retribution against civilians, but whatever happened, was definitely very different from any of the deliberate or pre-planned massacres that occurred later in the war in towns such as Lidice and Oradour.


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