Med Battleship G1

[Col.Stauffenberg]

For your second question, we already mentionned that Fortress Europe is a plan against KGF (kill Germany first), it doesn't beat every single ally strategy. If US goes after Japan instead of going after Germany this is not KGF anymore and obviously you keep the planes in Japan viscinity since you don't need them in Europe anymore (Germany can handle UK + Russia alone) and you really need those in the Pacific to slow down the US attack. It is a bit like chess. 1...e7-e5 is a very fine move against 1.e2-e4 but it is quite bad against 1.d2-d4

I wasn't even talking about the US going for Japan. I meant, what does Japan do with America's starting pieces, like the ones in China and Pearl? To fight them, you need planes, to not fight them would give US a massive headstart either against Japan or Germany. There's too many fights for them to send planes to Egypt in non-combat on round 1 is what I'm saying, and what I understand is important for Fortress Europe.

[MrMalachiCrunch]

As was mentioned several times......  The ��� planes DON'T refuse to fight in asia as they work their way to WEu.  Yes you can do Pearl on J1.  If Bury is stacked, either you can hit it with good odds in which case good for Japan or you don't hit it on round 1.  Bury cannot be stacked for ever.  If ��� builds 3 transports on J1 which is fairly typical, do you really want ANY allied units on the Asian coast?

How often does French-Indo get taken by the brits on R1?  Usually, Brit is looking to retake Egy.  If so, big deal....the allies got lucky and so what?  With 4 transports assuming Brits kill one, 4 transports and 2 battleships take out anything the allies have on the asian coast.

If the allies are leaving around lots of units so that you need your air to mop them up, great, victory Axis.  Again, in a KGF, ��� attacks China and Pearl on J1 as it takes until J3 for air assests to get in place in WEu.

So, the allies (US) are dropping units of in Algeria, so that Infantry you build on US1 moves to Persia on US6.  Six rounds later........, SIX rounds later those early builds are just now coming into play.  I wonder what ��� would have in store for any leading stack of US forces by round 6?

I played the US that way against Fortress Europe when I first was confronted with Fortress Europe.  You know what was frustrating?  NOT being able to get allied units past Egypt.  ��� rotates transports from Sz60,61 to Sz36.  That means ��� almost always has 2+ transports that can drop off infantry right where those leading US forces want to be, and that is backed up by a stack of Tanks.

You will find that you will have to hang out in Lib until your US stack is big enough to slowly march across Egy, then TRj, then Per.  That is 3 different places the Japanese KNOW you will move to, so they will position their forces so that you are bottled up in Africa.

So, just know that ��� WILL use their air assets for whatever suits them on J1 (read Pearl and China and places unknown).  Then as the assets migrate to WEu they will still attack anything juicy or necessary.  What land forces your build on US1-3 will be facing attack in Persia 6 rounds later which gives the Japanese alot of time to have tanks and naval assets in place to deal with that extremely long supply line.  The US will be trying to figure out how to get their builds past the Japs and near the USSR via Africa and Germany will be leaning VERY far forward.

Japan can build a tank on round 3 on Japan, that tank will be in FIC on Round 4 ready to attack Persia on round 5.  On the other hand, the Infantry the US builds on Round 1 will take until round 6 to be able to attack Persia.  There is no way for the US to build enough of a stack to move past Persia when confronted with a very short supply line of the Japanese and the ��� player knows where your builds will be for 6 rounds...Eus, then Alg, Lib, Egy, Trj then finally Per.


I do look forward to being able to dissect a Fortress Europe defeat.  I wish it were easier to review historical TripleA games.

[Hobbes]

I do look forward to being able to dissect a Fortress Europe defeat.  I wish it were easier to review historical TripleA games.

I played the attached game (version 1.3.2.2) as Allies some nights ago. My opponent went for Fortress Europe or something similar. One of his mistakes was not moving the Japanese planes quickly enough, the other to allow the Allies to stack Karelia and then E. Eur.

[MrMalachiCrunch]

Thanks Hobbes!  Once a game on TripleA is played and over, is there any way for a non participant to then go and retrieve the .tsvg file for review?

[Hobbes]

Thanks Hobbes!  Once a game on TripleA is played and over, is there any way for a non participant to then go and retrieve the .tsvg file for review?

Only if the players or a viewer save it and make it available afterwards. The problem is the non-compatibility between different versions of TripleA

[Hobbes]

Another Fortress Europe game, me as Axis. Allied player surrended round 9

[Col.Stauffenberg]

As was mentioned several times......  The ��� planes DON'T refuse to fight in asia as they work their way to WEu.  Yes you can do Pearl on J1.  If Bury is stacked, either you can hit it with good odds in which case good for Japan or you don't hit it on round 1.  Bury cannot be stacked for ever.  If ��� builds 3 transports on J1 which is fairly typical, do you really want ANY allied units on the Asian coast?

How often does French-Indo get taken by the brits on R1?  Usually, Brit is looking to retake Egy.  If so, big deal....the allies got lucky and so what?  With 4 transports assuming Brits kill one, 4 transports and 2 battleships take out anything the allies have on the asian coast.

If the allies are leaving around lots of units so that you need your air to mop them up, great, victory Axis.  Again, in a KGF, ��� attacks China and Pearl on J1 as it takes until J3 for air assests to get in place in WEu.

So, the allies (US) are dropping units of in Algeria, so that Infantry you build on US1 moves to Persia on US6.  Six rounds later........, SIX rounds later those early builds are just now coming into play.  I wonder what ��� would have in store for any leading stack of US forces by round 6?

I played the US that way against Fortress Europe when I first was confronted with Fortress Europe.  You know what was frustrating?  NOT being able to get allied units past Egypt.  ��� rotates transports from Sz60,61 to Sz36.  That means ��� almost always has 2+ transports that can drop off infantry right where those leading US forces want to be, and that is backed up by a stack of Tanks.

You will find that you will have to hang out in Lib until your US stack is big enough to slowly march across Egy, then TRj, then Per.  That is 3 different places the Japanese KNOW you will move to, so they will position their forces so that you are bottled up in Africa.

So, just know that ��� WILL use their air assets for whatever suits them on J1 (read Pearl and China and places unknown).  Then as the assets migrate to WEu they will still attack anything juicy or necessary.  What land forces your build on US1-3 will be facing attack in Persia 6 rounds later which gives the Japanese alot of time to have tanks and naval assets in place to deal with that extremely long supply line.  The US will be trying to figure out how to get their builds past the Japs and near the USSR via Africa and Germany will be leaning VERY far forward.

Japan can build a tank on round 3 on Japan, that tank will be in FIC on Round 4 ready to attack Persia on round 5.  On the other hand, the Infantry the US builds on Round 1 will take until round 6 to be able to attack Persia.  There is no way for the US to build enough of a stack to move past Persia when confronted with a very short supply line of the Japanese and the ��� player knows where your builds will be for 6 rounds...Eus, then Alg, Lib, Egy, Trj then finally Per.


I do look forward to being able to dissect a Fortress Europe defeat.  I wish it were easier to review historical TripleA games.

Ok so what's going on in Asia this whole time? Japan has three areas of approach they have to deal with. And I don't see how a stale mate in Persia is to the axis advantage. And how do they build 3 trans on round 1? What are they using to defend it? Because UK can get a Carrier, a plane and a bomber in striking range before they even build.

[MrMalachiCrunch]

Firstly.......Wow, you think it impossible for Japan to build 3 transports on Japan 1?  You also build a destroyer for 29 IPC.  By doing pearl harbour light, the Japs end up with a Carrier, 2 fighters, a battleship if you don't use it to kill the Brit CV and a destroyer.  Really, the Japs are scared of a brit attack now on Sz 60 why again?  I will allow you your cruiser AND your sub, I will make an error and won't attack any of those vulnerable pieces.  You will attack with a sub, fighter, bomber, cruiser and a CV.  And stupid me, by just sitting back and not attack the Brits I have allowed you a 10% chance of winning in Sz60, yup a whole 10%.   Secondly, if you commit the Brit Bomber to be in striking range of Sz60 you are letting Germany off easier.  If you commit the Brit fighter to harasses the HUGE ��� asian navy/air force you get little in return and you weaken Africa.  Sure, if Egy goes poorly on Germany1 you might want to harasses the Japs a bit.

Secondly, who mentioned a stalemate in Persia?  Not me, far from it.  Japan has COMPLETE control of that theatre.  If the US ventures into or past Egy it faces a massive ��� force of tanks, air (because the Japs know for 5 turns where you will be and can put air assets in place to attack the US stack if its even neccessary).  In fact, Japan will me marshaling their force in Persia to attack/threaten Caucus so good luck moving US forces past a massing Japanese army supported by all its navy and air force.

Dude, you keep arguing about a strategy that you have NEVER faced with people who were like you but then faced Fortress Europe.  Every argument against it you provide just shows me you don't seem to understand how it works.  I think it would be a better use of your energy to play somebody who can play Fortress Europe.  Then either you will say "Ok, now I get it".  Or you will see something that 100s of people who use it just failed to see.  You will be talked about as a legend for years to come.  When somebody uses Fortress Europe they will be "Stauffenberg'd" and we'll all smirk that somebody is using an old failed strategy.  I suspect it will be the former and not the latter but you never know, maybe you just will school all of us....  Either way, time to put up or........

[Advosan]

Another Fortress Europe game, me as Axis. Allied player surrended round 9

That was interesting. Fortress Europe worked fine against an allied "Mediterranean" path to Russia. Some aspects of the game worth imho mentioning:
1) Since R3 G. was left with just 4 airplanes (3 ftr, 1 bmb). Still, the Allies couldn t seem to find a safe SZ to set their fleet chain and kept losing capital ships and TTs all over the Atlantic right untill the end of the game. The very essence of Fortress Europe.
2) SZ52 J1 attack myth busted. Sparing the US fleet changed little in the game, since the US player was determined to withdraw from the pacific no matter what and use those ships in the Atlantic for KGF. But those US ships didn t change much in the Atlantic either, since KGF failed nonetheless. Another lesson learned, KGF won t work , not even if the Pacific US fleet crosses intact into the Atlantic and is used for KGF.
3) Germany had no problem surviving even without the African IPCs. Actually, trading the KAR-BLR-UKR line was more than enough to see G through untill Japan was ready to kill Moscow, even though G had also to deal with the US landings in the south. FE keeps Europe safe and dry all night long.
4) Russia was unable to survive even though they kept trading Europe, gaining 29 IPCs / turn (even reached 31). This is pretty much the best Russia can do, it wasn t enough though. The Allies must get the fleet chain going, otherwise all the IPCs of Europe won t save Russia. 
5) Japan doesn t need a horde of airplanes in Europe. From its initial 7, 5 airplanes (4 ftr, 1 bmb) are enough to start FE, giving J time to build its IPC base, cross the China gorge, invade Buratya and set a siege in Persia. From there, Novosibirsk/Kazak and Caucasus are only turns away.

[Hobbes]

Another Fortress Europe game, me as Axis. Allied player surrended round 9

That was interesting. Fortress Europe worked fine against an allied "Mediterranean" path to Russia.

On my experience so far this is the worse option for the Allies - the Med turns up to be a dead end and the Axis airforces have an easier reach. 

Some aspects of the game worth imho mentioning:
1) Since R3 G. was left with just 4 airplanes (3 ftr, 1 bmb). Still, the Allies couldn t seem to find a safe SZ to set their fleet chain and kept losing capital ships and TTs all over the Atlantic right untill the end of the game. The very essence of Fortress Europe.

Another thing worth mentioning - G1 had a 5 inf, 5 arm buy instead of a bomber because of the starting Russian buy of 4 arm, 1 art. I made it to prevent enskive (he's an excellent Revised player) from stacking Ukraine with the Russians. It was his first game against FE - I think he did pretty well.

2) SZ52 J1 attack myth busted. Sparing the US fleet changed little in the game, since the US player was determined to withdraw from the pacific no matter what and use those ships in the Atlantic for KGF. But those US ships didn t change much in the Atlantic either, since KGF failed nonetheless. Another lesson learned, KGF won t work , not even if the Pacific US fleet crosses intact into the Atlantic and is used for KGF.

The problem is, if the US kept the carrier and BB on the Pacific and the Japs would be forced to hold back most of its airforce or face a slow US build up.

3) Germany had no problem surviving even without the African IPCs. Actually, trading the KAR-BLR-UKR line was more than enough to see G through untill Japan was ready to kill Moscow, even though G had also to deal with the US landings in the south. FE keeps Europe safe and dry all night long.

Benefits of securing W. Europe - 6 IPC assured while denying them to the Allies. As long as G can stack W.Eur/Germany/E. Eur it will be safe.

[GCar]

Ok so what's going on in Asia this whole time? Japan has three areas of approach they have to deal with. And I don't see how a stale mate in Persia is to the axis advantage. And how do they build 3 trans on round 1? What are they using to defend it? Because UK can get a Carrier, a plane and a bomber in striking range before they even build.

Watch the games Hobbes took the time to post, try the strategy and honestly, until then, please stop telling everyone that what they say is bad when you are not even trying to understand. Building 3 Transports on turn 1 is VERY easy and just by watching the board it should be obvious. This is a strategy game and you need to put the time needed to understand, not just reading posts in forums. There as been many high level players taking their time here to answer your questions and you are really just arguing for the fun of it, having no intention to actually try the strategy (seriously this post has been going forever).

[Col.Stauffenberg]

Ok fine, I'm done talking. I have a test that has to be handed in by mid August. Then I need to figure out how to install AAA. Files just won't open for me. After that, I want one of you Fortress Europe fans. I'll even take on Hobbes.

[MrMalachiCrunch]

You can play here using Play by Forum, but many of the best players only play using TripleA.  I have yet to use TripleA but I understand that games are faster to play that way.  Play by forum requires a fair bit of verbiage to list out your moves.

One test to hand in?  When you hand stuff in, isn't that called homework?  Thank goodness you don't have kids or a full time job!  I dunno how family people find the time to play at all!

[Advosan]

Another thing worth mentioning - G1 had a 5 inf, 5 arm buy instead of a bomber because of the starting Russian buy of 4 arm, 1 art. I made it to prevent enskive (he's an excellent Revised player) from stacking Ukraine with the Russians. It was his first game against FE - I think he did pretty well.

And still, the Axis airforce performed great against a high tide of allied ships. If FE is applied, G may not buy a single airplane the whole game while J shouldn t bother buying until J3.

The problem is, if the US kept the carrier and BB on the Pacific and the Japs would be forced to hold back most of its airforce or face a slow US build up.

This struck me aswell. I would have moved the BB, AC loaded, TT and SS in Solomon Islands and buy a fleet to couter if J2 attacked the Solomon fleet. Japan would have to think before attacking, its fleet would be exposed to a counter.

[MrMalachiCrunch]

Hey Hobbes, thanks again for posting those saved games.  I finally got tripleA to work and was reviewing the save file FE.tsvg  I was reviewing Germany2 specifically the attack on the navy in Sz2.  It seemed like the US fighters didn't defend after the first round of combat.  In round 2 your sub hit and sinks the Brit CV leaving the 2 US fighters and Brit transport.  Your planes seemed to roll according to low luck but in that one instance, there seemed to be no rolls for the American fighters.  Now during non-combat there was a line "1 fighter could not land in 2 Sea Zone and was removed" that fighter being a german fighter. 

Is this just an artifact/bug in viewing game history?  I'm guessing in the battle you did take a hit due to a defense of 8, and the low luck roll of 2 missed, then the next round a low luck roll of 4 missed for the US?