How is the balance with the new Alpha 2 changes? Please give your view.

[Krieghund]

Put some parameters to your testing process. What methodologies are you following? RPS? Kaizan? Your gut feeling? What would be acceptable evidence?

A broken game becomes balanced by solutions, not by fiat from a failure of imagination. Any good playtester knows this.

The parameters have already been established - follow Jen's strategy as the Allies, and see if it can be countered as the Axis.  That's simple enough, isn't it?  As I've already stated, acceptable evidence would consist of multiple groups achieving similar results, or what scientists call replicating an experiment.  Any logically-minded person should be able to appreciate that.

As to solutions, trying to apply them without ascertaining the exact nature and magnitude of the problem will most often only make matters worse.  Any good playtester knows this.

Krieg,

Many of us have play tested the game by this point.  We are stating emphatically that it needs to be balanced and we are suggesting ways in which to balance it.

There seem to be two separate discussions going on here - one about general balance and one about a game-breaking Allied strategy.  As far as general balance goes, what I've mostly been hearing is that the Allies have a slight edge.  That obviously doesn't concern me nearly as much as the possible existence of a game-breaking strategy.

However, there should be PLENTY of games for you to compile to demonstrate all the possible avenues of attack and all the possible strategies for you to get a firm understanding that the game is unbalanced.  You won't have to play test, we've done that for you to the tune of at least a few hundred games amoungst all the players here and probably a lot more with the players who post at Larry's blog forum.

Again, I'm concerned about your "game-breaking" strategy right now.  All I'm seeing to support that are your posts and a few other people jumping on the band wagon without any evidence of their own to support it.  I want to see the results of more games played with that strategy before considering any fixes.

[special forces]

Special Forces:

Regardless of when Japan declares war, we are talking Round 4 that America is in position with sufficient strength to necessitate a Japanese withdrawel to SZ 6, except when Japan declares war on Turn 4, in which case, add two rounds and America should be in sufficient strength to necessitate a Japanese withdrawel on Round 6.

What's the primary difference?  For three more rounds Japan can collect the National Objective for FIC.  +24 IPC (3x 10 IPC - 3 rounds of controlling FIC at 2 IPC a round.)

Well, the primary difference would be that if Japan attacks turn 1 it can keep both India and Anzac small (and bonusless) and even snag one of their VC's. Also, as you know, Japan can grow fast as well when they do this.
The drawback is of course that USA grows faster.

I was trying to get an idea of the (dare i say) balance between a rapidly growing USA + wounded India / Anzac,
versus a USA that starts earning the big bucks a few turns later, but with India + Anzac getting strong enough to significantly hassle Japan,  and/or setting their own VC's safe, or even helping out in the Middle east.
That FIC NO (which i have no problem with) wont stop India + Anzac from growing and getting into good positions (which is also not unimportant)

If, like you say, USA is ready to go around round 4 (or 6) that means it can reach the asian coast or japan itself no sooner than turn 7 (or 9) if we add 1 turn of blocking.
Also I am guessing this US fleet won't carry enough land units to overtake Japan instantly. So let's say USA needs a few turns to succesfully do that, or take and keep another VC on the mainland.

Where i am trying to get is: Do the Axis have enough time to get their VC's before the American Fist strikes? (in either the Jap1 or USA4 scenario). About 9 turns to get enough VC's?
If this is still possible, we could claim the game isn't broken.


I should add that i don't agree that Germany cannot handle Russia (it may take time but eventually, Moskva will have to burn), it will take about 9 or 10 turns at least though. Also, without US pressure Italy should be able to get hold of Cairo (these were at least possible in OOB rules, which were said to be even less balanced, no?)

[JimmyHat]

dude, she could have posted that link 20 pages ago!!!!  She's not going to do it.  Page after page and I am starting to think Jen is not all she's cracked up to be.  These set in concrete strategies she employs result in this situation of US beating Japan like a small child.  When I chime in with possible solutions for the axis, they are mostly ignored.   All I can say is her results are far different than the ones I've had in Global.  Now in my games Italy takes no losses UK1 and Japan attacks the allies J2 or at latest J3.(usually J2 tho)

Also, have you tried fleeing with the ��� navy?  So you're going to lose sz6 and be convoy raided, why bottle up your ��� fleet, why not instead dominate the Indian ocean or move into the Med?  Why put the ��� fleet in a position it can die in sz6? (I keep my fleet fast and lose, it never anchors somewhere to die)

[special forces]

Also, have you tried fleeing with the ��� navy?  So you're going to lose sz6 and be convoy raided, why bottle up your ��� fleet, why not instead dominate the Indian ocean or move into the Med?  Why put the ��� fleet in a position it can die in sz6? (I keep my fleet fast and lose, it never anchors somewhere to die)

Exactly, if the enemy fleet is too big to handle, avoid it, do an evasive dance around the ocean (doing something useful while at it) and don't buy new ships (urgent blockers excepted)
Med is indeed not a bad idea either.

[Cmdr Jennifer]

The classic BS (surprise attack story) aside, America should not have a real battleship anyway.  Yes, the British used cruisers and biplanes effectively against the Bismark, but they had real battleships as well.  America had no real battleships and more-over, reducing the battleship to a cruiser effectively removed 8 IPC and 1 hit from the board, without drastically altering the setup.  I am much more inclined to remove units than I am to add units.

BTW, I have a framed copy of the Navy Intelligence's directive to shoot the next officer coming to warn President Roosevelt about the impending attack on Pearl Harbor.  I'll see if I can get a specialist to scan it or if it will damage the ink to badly.  The ink back then did not hold up well to sunlight, so it may not be scanable, but we'll see.


Agreed on the parameters thing, but I would keep the new "ends" as effective cut offs.  After all, there comes a point in which defeat is pretty much a sure thing and by then, it might be wiser to just end and start a new game so you have more samples and thus, better results on the data.


I do not see a distinction between game balance and a game breaking strategy.  If the game is balanced, there is no game breaking strategy.  If there is a game breaking strategy, then game is unbalanced.


Japan should maintain the largest possible threat it can for as long as it can.  By doing this, it extends the time America has to spend in the Pacific and thus, gives Germany the maximum possible chance to beat Russia before America draws their forces out of Russia allowing Russia to push them back into Europe.

If Japan does not block a frontal attack, then America will sink their ships and thus, there is no threat in the Pacific.  One does not need to wait around for China to push Japan out, once the Japanese fleet is gone, America can stop building in the Pacific using what they have to maintain naval supremecy.

If Japan does block a frontal attack, now America has to worry about countering Japan's builds.  Further, countering Japans builds is only part of the issue, as Japan is blocking an attack thus America must either move forward and lose Australian air support or build planes for an all out air attack on the Japanese fleet. 

Essentially, putting out picket ships forces America to make decisions and delays the point in which America can withdraw and help in the Atlantic.  I agree that throwing away 24 IPC a round for Japan is a losing proposition, but it is better than throwing out 2 or 3 carriers, 2 battleships, a cruiser, a dozen destroyers, a bakers dozen submarines and a wing of fighters/bombers and ending up paying the bank a dozen IPC a round in convoy damage.


I have been on both the receiving and dealing end of a Round 1 Japan attack.  It looks awesome, until about round 4 when it becomes clear their advance is mostly on paper, there is no real purchasing power to that expanse.

I assume India is small for most of the game, it is only later that territories are liberated and annexed that India finally grows.

Australia is Australia, there's really not a lot Japan can do to it on Round 1.

America, on the other hand, is just a monster.  The longer you can prepare for the monster, the better your chances seem to be. (Remember, if you attack America on Round 1, America can immediately start reinforcing England if they choose to go that route.)


I agree, if there is no help for the entire game, Russia will fall to Germany.  The argument is not that Russia can win, the argument is that Russia can last until the Allies have time to come save them.


Jimmy:

If you flee with the Japanese navy, you cede 11 IPC in damages a round to convoy damage, meanwhile, with no reinforcements coming, it is only a matter of time before you are cornered. 

As America, I can easily keep enough submarines in the water to prevent you from building a new fleet.  Further, if you run away, even if you go all the way to S. Africa, all you do is bring the Americans with you, one step behind.

Doesn't seem effective, but go and try it!  Let us know!

[JimmyHat]

excellent, sounds quite effective to me.  I would try and pull the allies away from the pacific, hoping to team up with the Italians/Germans and help them.  I know sz6 is going to be convoy raided to death, in fact you would do that if you killed the fleet.  So losing the fleet or saving it Japan will be convoyed....

[Cmdr Jennifer]

Great.  Would you try it and see if it works?  Let us know.

I don't think it would help much since all I believe you would accomplish is dragging the American fleet closer to Italy and Germany. 

Also, keep in mind that the DEI, the northern coast of China as well as Japan/Korea can be convoy raided and probably will be until the territory is liberated.  Just a thought to keep in your head, something to consider.

[suprise attack]

   The Allies were victorious,  lucky rolls on key battles and the Allies worked together better than last week.
The teams were the same, the score 1-1 next time we're going to switch sides.

[taschuler]

Jen,

As the US with your all Pacific strategy, what would you do if Germany had wiped out the Royal Navy, on G2 purchased 5 subs with other equipment from the 70 IPC round 2 that is easily attainable with the destruction of France. By Germany turn 4 they could bring upwards of 8 Subs to attack the Cruiser in the waters off of Eastern US. The likelihood that one of the 8 hit on their sneak attack is  ~97%, which would destroy both the cruiser and the transport at that point. With no Destroyer in the SZ101, no retaliation is likely.

On G1 3 subs attacked SZ106, 2 attacked SZ109.  The two in SZ109 will get wiped out most likely in UK1. Assume UK navy in Mediterranean stays focused on Italy instead of making a dash to the Atlantic. G1 purchase of an AC, Sub and Destroyer.

With up to a 16 IPC reduction in the US income, that would force the US spend on the other side of the map. Those coastal waters off of the US are going to be ripe for convoy raids if the German player puts for a little bit of effort.

I believe Germany can afford to sacrifice that hardware at that point in the game to draw the US attention away from the Pacific. It would give the Japanese some time to forge into the DEI. This also assumes that Japan attacks only China in J1 and J2, with an aggressive J3 to attempt to take Hong Kong, Manilla and Malaya.

Hard for me to test this out since the aBattleMap crashes constantly and my boards are tied up with a game in progress.

[JimmyHat]

had a game tonight but I drew axis and had a hard time convincing my opponent to try a strategy he wasn't prepared for.    As is we are at the beginning of G4 with germany having 13 trns, an army in Scotland and the hammer poised.  Italy has taken the Med and is fighting in the middle east, and US has moved to Gib with a large fleet but very small army.

Largest aberration in this game was Russia stacking Amur with 18 inf 1 aa gun R1.  After my J1 attack on Russia it postponed my attack on the allies until J3.  Still the value in killing those infantry and the few dollars earned from Russia have made up for the 12ipcs and lost round.  That being said, round 4 is when the real fighting will start and I will have to update after the next time we play.

[questioneer]

Mantlefan, mine doesn't crash anymore

1. Get the 10MB version
2. When you replace the file with the old one, you still have to manually delete the old file- you end up getting 2 files marked T40 and I think that is what make it crash.

Kreighund,

Thanks for the fair direction given- everyone just needs to try the strat a few times- that's what we need right now.  I'm also under the assumption that you will try it a few times also.  Jen has given MORE than enough info and guidelines for it.  So I assume we will hear from you also- that would be most productive.  That is what we are asking YOU to do also.  There are already several people who agree with Jen and are seeing this in their games.

[ghr2]

Quest, can u link the 10 mb version?  I alrdy have wonkos 3.1 version, and i don't have any other T40's but it still crashes.

[questioneer]

Quest, can u link the 10 mb version?  I alrdy have wonkos 3.1 version, and i don't have any other T40's but it still crashes.

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=22837.0

It the 3.1 version- lower resolution.

I can't remember how I got rid of the other files, but I know I had to manually do it.  It doesn't replace them right or something- anyway after that mine has worked fine.  That's the best I can do to help.  Ask Wonko of TMTM though.

[Cmdr Jennifer]

   The Allies were victorious,  lucky rolls on key battles and the Allies worked together better than last week.
The teams were the same, the score 1-1 next time we're going to switch sides.

Yes.  That is a pitfall of playing one or two games to test a strategy.  However, LL and NL games are even worse precisely because (in a game with Krycheck) I had 100% odds of success in a battle for Tokyo America would have NEVER attempted in an ADS game, likewise in previous editions of the game, I have taken and lost battleships to 4 fighter attacks in one round, perhaps getting one fighter, perhaps getting none whereas in an ADS game a 4 fighter attack has a high probability of losing two fighters to a battleship.

Another problem is pulling it on someone who has never seen it before.  It is very hard to base the validity of a strategy if the person you are playing has never seen the maneuver before.  In subsequent battles they will generally see what is coming and be able to adapt to the situation, thus, ensuring it is strategy, not luck (well, at least more strategy and less luck) that makes the case.

I'd love to hear further evidence on how it goes, if you try it again. 

[Cmdr Jennifer]

Taschuler:

I have seen and dealt with German submarine strategies.  It does draw some from the US away from the Pacific, in the short run.

One method of dealing with it is to have the British fleet (defined as any combat unit able to get there) attack SZ 101 and sink the German U-Boats while a destroyer(s) and American aircraft attack the Gulf of Mexico and sink the U-Boats there.

Given the range from Hamburg to Washington DC, it is relatively easy to see this coming, so staging for it can be readily factored into your game play.  However, I agree, it does detract something from the Pacific.


Mantle,

I agree.  The T40 module seems very unstanble and it is quite annoying to rebuild when it crashes during England's turn, if you do not save on a routine basis.


I have not gotten the new one.  I'll wait a bit more, since it is not that annoying to me. 


Mantlefan,

If you want to put your IPC where your keyboard is, I'll be glad to play you in a best of 3 out of 5 games.  I just need time to clear my plate a little, so do let me know if you are interested and we'll make sure to keep the game links in this thread so others can follow the progress.

Typical game rules:
* No Technologies
* National Objectives - On
* Russo-Japan Non-Aggression Treaty - On
* Automatic Convoy Raiding - On
* No Bid
* ADS (The one provided here, so people can follow along.)
* ABattlemap (T40 Module)

etc.