New Axis Strategy - Sealion plus ��� Canada

[SgtBlitz]

About EVERY single game I've seen is griping that the US is just too damn strong in Europe, and that it can completely ignore the Pacific while it whups up with 80+ IPCs on Italy and France.  There's no way the Axis powers can hold against the US and the UK's combined IPCs for long, and Italy/Germany are mostly thrown on the defensive from the moment the US enters the war.

One thing the 1940 ruleset adds is the possibility of a Sealion, which isn't that bad of a strategy (at least with the E40 game by itself).  If Germany gets decent odds on a G3 Sealion, they have a pretty good shot of taking the UK out of the game, even in Global.  Taking ~30 IPCs permamently out of the Allied coffers significantly raises the ability of the Axis powers to hold against the US's lone 80 IPCs vs. 110-120 IPCs combined with UK.  However, as most people have seen, the US can throw together one hell of a rescue fleet by US 1-2, simply by moving its Pacific fleet into the Atlantic.  It seems impossible for Germany to protect its transports, build enough defensive fleet to stop the US counter, AND build enough defensive infantry to stop the Russians in the east (not to mention holding London).

Usually the Japs are spending their first few turns setting up in Asia to take over the money islands and finishing off China.  Also, they generally do this at their leisure as the US has probably moved its fleet back to the east coast anyway due to the Sealion risk (or sitting pretty with their starter fleet off Hawaii).  Why not consolidate off Japan with as many transports as one can put together (maybe leaving a minor fleet off Malaya to do some clean up so you're still getting island $), and get busy dropping off troops in British Columbia or Alaska?  Maybe even build a minor IC in Alaska.  If you can force the US to spend 30-40 IPCs a turn to defend the West coast for at least a few rounds, it makes Germany's/Italy's job that much easier.

Yes, the Reds will probably be huge, but as in just about every game I've seen, the US is a MUCH larger factor to be dealt with, especially in the Atlantic.  Has anyone else tried this combo strat yet?

[calvinhobbesliker]

This is exactly what Japan SHOULD be doing if the allies are stupid enough to ignore Japan.

[SgtBlitz]

Well, this is more of a PLANNED strategy than a spur-of-the-moment thing.  You intentionally plan for and force Sealion G3 to provoke a US response for its US1 and US2 repositioning/builds in SZ 101, then take advantage of that with a Japanese attack on B. Columbia and Alaska J3.  The US should only have $52 still from peacetime builds and will only be able to respond with a W. US build as defense.  If Japan can land 4 transports full of units and have 3 loaded CVs + BB and CA (easy mode with two turns of build), it will be difficult to defend against that in W. US with only $52, a 10 unit build limit, and most of the starting units positioned to counterattack Nazi England in the E. US/SZ 101. 

If nothing else, dislodging the Japs from Alaska and B. Columbia should buy Germany/Italy 2-3 rounds more time to consolidate England and Africa, build more air/naval units to defend the Atlantic, and especially some infantry to stop Stalin in his tracks.  Yes, Japan is going to lose a lot of steam from this, but since you've only really got India and ANZAC to worry about, if you take the money islands they are generally reduced to minor annoyances anyway.

[rockrobinoff]

my games with zooooma have seen this strat in play. my response to a japanese threat against north america, is to build ground troops in central US; from there they can either move to california or not, and transports can be built next (or later) turn.

[zooooma]

If USA buys (Atlantic) navy turn one instead of ground units, this strategy can be very strong.  So strong that a good US player should always buy ground forces turn one. 

Now If Japan follows through ans poises of coast for a J3 invasion f North America, USA can build another round of troops.  In so doing, USA has enough forces it seems to deal with the Japanese threat.  I've looked at this from many angles - maximum pressure on Western US, trying to force through Panama, even taking Alberta G3 and landing the entire Japanese airforce there. 

So far, however I seem to cut it America can still defend.  Then the Japanese attack loses steam (most of it's strength comes from the initial air advantage) and America begins to divert forces away from homeland defense and into Europe.  USA is delayed, but not long enough for a post Sea Lion Germany to begin to put real pressure on Russia.  Italy is in trouble too, with no Japanese pressure on British India.

Incidentally, we play OOB,not alpha.  I encourage you to keep thinking about this and trying it, but I'm running out of optimism for this strategy.

[maverick_76]

From what it sounds like that could work but I think you can't go all out unless the US really makes a big mistake. You have to play in Asia with Japan in order to keep India out of Europe and Africa. But this is definitely viable, but you still have to have some luck.

[Weezer 410]

ultimately I believe this strategy is doomed for failure, America only needs to build 10 inf. in central and western USA to make this strategy useless, and though it takes time and money away from the European front, it leaves the japanese in a bad strategic position and allows India and ANZAC a long respite, even with a small fleet off of malaya the british can spend a couple of turns building ships and easily grab the money islands. Pretty soon India will be getting 30+ Ipc's a turn and ANZAC will probaly have at least 15 if not 20+  while Japan will probably be somewhere between 30 and 35 and thats assuming no convoy raiding and no russian attack.

I believe that this strategy is a waste of Japanese potential and is just using them as a distraction to give germany more time rather than allowing Japan to turn into the monster it can become by turn 5 or 6. By then it can attack the US or Russia and really change the game instead of delay the Americans one turn.

[SgtBlitz]

Well, yes, its mostly a distraction than anything, and can easily be countered (of course, what HASN'T been countered in Axis and Allies), but wouldn't it be better to have a lot of forces nearby, if not already IN the killzones, by the time you reach the "monster" Japan on turn 5 or 6?  You could definitely have a small force staged and ready to go for the money islands by J2, easily.  An AB in Kwangsi with a giant plane stack would go far in clearing out startup navies and transports around the money islands, and building at least 3 transports a turn is possible with Japan's starting money for the first few turns, so you're not missing that much.

I argued in another thread that Japan might actually be better off going to war later on since India and ANZAC are able to use the extra money island income LESS effectively during neutrality than the US, which receives a flat +30 NO bonus just because the rules say so.  Also, the US's new units are built out of range of the 20+ extra planes Japan starts with.

[SgtBlitz]

From what it sounds like that could work but I think you can't go all out unless the US really makes a big mistake. You have to play in Asia with Japan in order to keep India out of Europe and Africa. But this is definitely viable, but you still have to have some luck.

Yeah, definitely to point one there.  But "playing in Asia with Japan in order to keep India out of Europe and Africa"...  The UK usually sends those ships and planes into Africa because they know they can push over Mussolini a HELL of a lot easier than trying to fight the monster 20 plane stack Japan has.

I guess what I'm (and more likely everyone else is) complaining about is:  for all the extra layers added to the game in the 1940 edition, the US STILL can blithely ignore the Pacific while focusing entirely on Europe, and largely get away with it.  And for all the closeness of Japan to the US (3 SZs to British Columbia!), it is more in Japan's interest to send troops to Moscow than to try to get IPCs off the American heartland (impossible to take with US having 3 major ICs and 80 IPCs to spend!)

Still not balanced.  Maybe the best recourse is for Japan to send those 20 starter planes to Europe ASAP to give the Euro Axis a fighting chance.

[Canuck12]

Still not balanced.  Maybe the best recourse is for Japan to send those 20 starter planes to Europe ASAP to give the Euro Axis a fighting chance.

Nah. I stll think a well-played Japan needs to be adressed by the Americans in order for the allies to succeed. If Japan is left to its own devices (and played by a skilled player) it becomes a huge beast with many tentacles. If the US doesnt come at me at least a little bit. I'm gong to be simultaneously hittng russia in the far east, the middle east and through china And hopefully helpng out africa too. And that shouldn't hurt my chances of takng Hawaii for 6 extra Ipcs either. How does that save Germany from immenent doom? It doesn't. But at least it frees up some of Italy's ressources to push on Russia. 

[RedHunter]

See the thing is it still doesn't matter Germany is crushed and the game is all but over as Italy falls soon after. Then Japan can be ganged up on no matter how many ipc's they have.